United States v. Douglas ( 2018 )


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  •           United States Court of Appeals
    For the First Circuit
    No. 18-1129
    UNITED STATES,
    Appellee,
    v.
    ISHMAEL DOUGLAS,
    Defendant, Appellant.
    APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    FOR THE DISTRICT OF MAINE
    [Hon. Jon D. Levy, U.S. District Judge]
    Before
    Lynch, Stahl, and Thompson,
    Circuit Judges.
    J. Hilary Billings on brief for appellant.
    Benjamin M. Block, Assistant United States Attorney, and
    Halsey B. Frank, United States Attorney, on brief for appellee.
    October 12, 2018
    LYNCH, Circuit Judge.     This direct appeal after entry of
    a guilty plea raises important questions under federal criminal
    law, particularly whether it is appropriate to use the categorical
    approach in determining what is a "crime of violence" under 18
    U.S.C. § 924(c)(3)(b).
    Ishmael Douglas entered a conditional plea of guilty to
    charges of conspiracy to commit a Hobbs Act robbery, in violation
    of 18 U.S.C. § 1951(a), and of using, carrying, or brandishing a
    firearm in relation to a "crime of violence," in violation of 18
    U.S.C. § 924(c)(1).      Douglas now appeals the district court's
    denial of his motion, before the plea, to dismiss a portion of the
    latter charge, on the ground that the residual clause at 18 U.S.C.
    § 924(c)(3)(B) is unconstitutionally vague under Johnson v. United
    States, 
    135 S. Ct. 2551
    (2015), and Sessions v. Dimaya, 
    138 S. Ct. 1204
    (2018).   See United States v. Williams, 
    179 F. Supp. 3d 141
    (D. Me. 2016).    The district court did not reach this issue in
    denying the motion.    
    Id. After de
    novo review, we conclude that § 924(c)(3)(B) is
    not, as Douglas argues, void for vagueness.         That is because the
    statute   reasonably     allows   for     a   case-specific     approach,
    considering    real-world    conduct,     rather   than   a   categorical
    approach, and because Douglas's conspiracy to commit a Hobbs Act
    robbery qualifies as a "crime of violence."        We largely agree with
    the reasoning of the Second Circuit in a similar case, United
    - 2 -
    States v. Barrett, 
    903 F.3d 166
    (2d Cir. 2018), save for one point,
    and with the result and much of the reasoning in Ovalles v. United
    States, No. 17-10172, 
    2018 WL 4830079
    (11th Cir. Oct. 4, 2018) (en
    banc).       We affirm.
    I.     Background
    A.      Facts
    We   describe   the   background    facts    of   the   underlying
    offense, accepted by both parties,1 because they are relevant to a
    case-specific, real-world analysis of a "crime of violence" under
    § 924(c)(3)(b).
    In August 2014, Douglas, along with Kourtney Williams,
    Victor Lara, Jr., and Heidi Hutchinson, conspired to commit a home
    invasion robbery in Minot, Maine.            Williams, Lara, and Hutchinson
    began       planning    the   robbery   on   July    26;    Douglas     joined   the
    conspiracy on either August 1 or August 2.2                    The conspirators
    targeted the house of a person they believed to be engaged in
    1 With one exception, discussed in footnote 2, Douglas
    accepted the prosecution version of the facts in his brief. He
    did not object to the facts in the revised Presentence Report.
    2 At his change of plea hearing, Douglas told the district
    court that he joined the conspiracy as the group was driving to
    Minot on August 2, rather than the day before as the prosecution
    claimed.     However, mirroring the prosecution's assertion,
    Douglas's own brief for this court states that he joined the
    conspiracy on August 1. In any event, the precise date is not
    relevant to our analysis, because it is settled that Douglas joined
    the conspiracy before the armed robbery.
    - 3 -
    illegal drug trafficking, in order to steal Percocet (oxycodone)
    pills and proceeds from the drug trafficking.
    On August 2, Hutchinson drove the other conspirators to
    the targeted house in Minot and waited outside after dropping them
    off.       Lara, Williams, and Douglas, in partial disguise, entered
    the house by breaking a glass sliding door.                    They yelled "get
    down," "DEA," and "police."               Williams carried a pistol; Lara had
    a crowbar.           Douglas found in a bedroom a 9-millimeter Beretta
    handgun with an extended clip, which he took and brandished during
    the robbery.
    The conspirators found three men inside the house, whom
    they tried to secure by placing zip ties around the men's hands.3
    But the zip ties were not large enough for the task.
    Lara assaulted the three men with a crowbar.                 First,
    Lara       beat    and   bloodied   one    man,   striking    him   in   the    back,
    shoulders, and head with a crowbar because he did not look away
    from the conspirators when told to do so.                    Lara later beat him
    again with a crowbar when he said that he did not know the
    combination to a safe in the house.               Lara beat a second man in the
    back, shoulders, arms, and thighs with a crowbar after he was found
    hiding under a futon.          Lara also beat the third man in the face,
    legs, and back.
    3  The government refers to all victims                      here   as    male
    regardless of gender, and we will do the same.
    - 4 -
    Douglas   and   Williams   also   threatened   the   three   men
    several times with firearms.       The conspirators demanded that the
    men, at gunpoint, give them "the shit" and the combination to the
    safe.   Douglas also forced the first man to the garage, with
    Douglas holding his hand on the man's neck and pressing a gun to
    his head.     After the man stated that there was nothing in the
    garage, Lara told Douglas to shoot him, but Douglas did not do so.
    One of the conspirators also dragged that man down a hallway,
    holding him in a headlock.
    After unsuccessfully searching the house for oxycodone
    and money, Williams and Lara then forced two of the men outside at
    gunpoint.    The first man -- believing he was about to be shot --
    fled to a neighbor's house.            He saw the conspirators run to
    Hutchinson in the waiting SUV and drive away.              The third man
    escaped and called the police from another neighbor's house.
    The conspirators did not find any pills or proceeds.
    They did steal a video game console, six to eight ounces of
    marijuana, and the Beretta pistol that Douglas had found, taken,
    and brandished during the robbery.        Police, acting with a search
    warrant for the house, found the crowbar and zip ties used in the
    robbery.    DEA agents later found items at the house that the
    conspirators had unsuccessfully sought: 147 fifteen-milligram and
    504 thirty-milligram oxycodone pills, 376 grams of powder cocaine,
    thirty-three pounds of marijuana, and more than $6,000 in cash.
    - 5 -
    Later, pursuant to a warrant, the police searched a storage unit
    used by the conspirators and found the two guns brandished in the
    robbery.
    B.   Procedural History
    On April 7, 2015, Douglas was charged with four counts
    of a seven count indictment: conspiracy to possess with intent to
    distribute oxycodone, in violation of 21 U.S.C. § 846 (Count One);
    conspiracy to commit a Hobbs Act robbery, in violation of 18 U.S.C.
    § 1951(a) (Count Two); possession of a firearm as a convicted
    felon, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1) (Count Five); and
    knowingly using, carrying, and brandishing a firearm during a crime
    of violence, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 924(c)(1) (Count Six).
    Douglas   moved   to   dismiss       the   portion   of   Count   Six
    containing "the allegation that he knowingly used, carried, and
    brandished    a   firearm   during    and    in    relation   to   a   crime   of
    violence."     In effect, he claimed that a conspiracy to commit a
    Hobbs Act robbery does not qualify as a "crime of violence" under
    18 U.S.C. § 924(c).
    The district court denied this motion in an order issued
    on April 15, 2016.      
    Williams, 179 F. Supp. 3d at 155
    .               Taking a
    categorical approach to the "force clause"4 at § 924(c)(3)(A), the
    4    Some courts instead refer to this clause as the "elements
    clause." See, e.g., United States v. Armour, 
    840 F.3d 904
    , 907
    (7th Cir. 2016).
    - 6 -
    district court determined that "a conspiracy to commit a Hobbs Act
    robbery may serve as a predicate 'crime of violence' under the
    'force clause.'"      
    Id. The district
    court did not reach Douglas's
    argument that § 924(c)(3)(B), the residual clause,5 is void for
    vagueness in light of Johnson.           
    Id. Douglas then
    entered a conditional guilty plea to Counts
    Two and Six, reserving his right to appeal the district court's
    denial of the motion to dismiss a portion of Count Six.                     At the
    Rule 11 hearing, Douglas affirmed that he understood the basis for
    the charges.      Defense counsel acknowledged that the "admissible
    part of the evidence would permit a properly instructed jury to
    determine beyond a reasonable doubt" that Douglas had committed
    the charged offenses.
    The district court sentenced Douglas to 108 months'
    imprisonment: twenty-four months on Count Two and eighty-four
    months on Count Six, to be served consecutively.                 Douglas appealed
    the denial of his motion to dismiss.
    II.   Discussion
    We address three substantive issues.              First, we consider
    Douglas's assertion that the government has waived its key argument
    on   appeal    that   the   use    of   the     term   "crime    of   violence"   in
    5   Some courts instead refer to this clause as the "risk-
    of-force clause."   See, e.g., United States v. St. Hubert, 
    883 F.3d 1319
    , 1320 (11th Cir. 2018).
    - 7 -
    § 924(c)(3)(B)     allows   for   a   case-specific   rather   than   a
    categorical approach, by not asserting it in the district court.6
    The government acknowledges it made a concession, but argues it
    was not a waiver.       Second, we reach the merits of Douglas's
    argument that, under Johnson and Dimaya, the residual clause at
    § 924(c)(3)(B) is void for vagueness.        The government does not
    defend the district court's alternate rationale or contend that
    the conspiracy charged would qualify as a "crime of violence" under
    the force clause at § 924(c)(3)(A), so we do not address this
    point.7   Third, because we find that § 924(c)(3)(B) is not void
    for vagueness, we consider -- by a case-specific, real-world
    approach -- whether Douglas's particular conspiracy to commit a
    Hobbs Act robbery qualifies as a "crime of violence" under the
    residual clause.    We affirm the denial of the motion to dismiss.
    We review de novo the denial of Douglas's motion to
    dismiss a portion of Count Six of his indictment, as Douglas's
    appeal challenges the constitutionality of a federal statute. See,
    6    As   discussed   later,   a  categorical   or   modified
    categorical approach considers an "idealized ordinary case" of the
    crime charged; a case-specific approach considers a defendant's
    "real-world conduct." 
    Johnson, 135 S. Ct. at 2557-58
    .
    7    The government explicitly "does not adopt the district
    court’s holding that conspiracy to commit Hobbs Act robbery
    constitutes a crime of violence under the force clause . . . .
    [T]he Department of Justice's position is that a conspiracy offense
    does not have 'as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened
    use of physical force against the person or property of another.'"
    - 8 -
    e.g., United States v. Hussein, 
    351 F.3d 9
    , 14 (1st Cir. 2003).
    And we also review de novo the proper understanding and application
    of "crime of violence" in the residual clause.             See, e.g., United
    States v. Turner, 
    501 F.3d 59
    , 67 (1st Cir. 2007).
    A.    Concession and Waiver
    We turn to the intertwined issues of concession and
    waiver.    At the district court proceedings, which occurred before
    the   Supreme     Court's     decision      in   Dimaya,    the    government
    acknowledged that § 924(c)(3)(B) "involves a risk-based analysis
    of the 'ordinary case' of a predicate offense."              Douglas argues,
    albeit solely in his reply brief, that the government has therefore
    waived    its   argument    that   § 924(c)(3)(B)    allows    for   a   case-
    specific, real-world approach rather than a categorical approach.
    The government asserts that its acknowledgement of the categorical
    approach in the district court should be viewed at most as a
    concession made for purposes of argument.            Admittedly, the line
    between waiver and concession is a hazy one.               See, e.g., United
    States v. Torres-Rosario, 
    658 F.3d 110
    , 116 (1st Cir. 2011)
    ("Courts are not always consistent in their use of the term waiver
    . . . . [A]n explicit concession can waive both existing and yet-
    to-be-recognized rights." (emphasis in original)).                Whether the
    government's acknowledgment in the district court is best viewed
    as a concession or a waiver, the situation here -- where an
    intervening Supreme Court case, Dimaya, has shifted the relevant
    - 9 -
    legal landscape -- leads us to conclude that we should review the
    substantive issue.
    The law is clear that a "concession by either party in
    a criminal case as to a legal conclusion is not binding on an
    appellate court."    United States v. Sanchez-Berrios, 
    424 F.3d 65
    ,
    81 (1st Cir. 2005); accord United States v. Borrero-Acevedo, 
    533 F.3d 11
    , 15 n.3 (1st Cir. 2008).          There are at least three
    "pertinent    considerations"   in   determining   whether   we   should
    address an earlier concession by a party:
    1) whether the issue is recurrent so that
    decision would give guidance to the district
    courts, 2) whether it would be unseemly to
    accept, even arguendo, a mistaken legal
    proposition and reason from it to decide the
    case, and 3) whether the issues are technical
    and complex and not explored carefully in
    existing decisions so that adversary briefing
    would be critical.
    United States v. Mescual-Cruz, 
    387 F.3d 1
    , 8 n.2 (1st Cir. 2004).
    Each consideration leads us to bypass the so-called concession and
    reach the merits.    Indeed, the opinion in Dimaya alone would lead
    us to this same conclusion.
    First, this is a recurring issue.     Section 924(c)(3)(B)
    has come up numerous times in district courts in this circuit, and
    in several cases in the past few months alone.8        A determination
    8    At least three district court cases in this circuit have
    considered § 924(c)(3)(B) in light of the Supreme Court's decision
    in Dimaya. See LiCausi v. United States, No. 16-CV-279-JD, 
    2018 WL 4054905
    , at *3 (D.N.H. Aug. 23, 2018) (holding that
    - 10 -
    on the substantive issues in this appeal would provide guidance to
    district courts in this unsettled area of law.          Second, it would
    be "unseemly" to hold the government to its earlier position when
    an intervening Supreme Court case, Dimaya, substantially changed
    this area of law.        Third, the proper approach to the residual
    clause at § 924(c)(3)(B) is a technical issue that has arisen in
    current form only after Dimaya, and merits our serious evaluation.
    In the interests of completeness, we also address, and
    reject,   Douglas's      waiver   argument.    Waiver    raises   similar
    considerations as concession.         Waiver is usually "treated as an
    'intentional,'     and    therefore    permanent,   abandonment    of   a
    position."    
    Torres-Rosario, 658 F.3d at 115
    .9
    "§ 924(c)(3)(B) is unconstitutionally vague"); United States v.
    Rossetti, No. CR 99-10098-RGS, 
    2018 WL 3748161
    , at *3 (D. Mass.
    Aug. 7, 2018) (same); Soto-Cosme v. United States, 
    320 F. Supp. 3d 350
    , 353 (D.P.R. 2018) (noting, but avoiding, the "void-for-
    vagueness" challenge).
    9    Waiver doctrine can be applied against any party: "in
    fairness, what is sauce for the defendant's goose is sauce for the
    government's gander." United States v. Caraballo-Cruz, 
    52 F.3d 390
    , 393 (1st Cir. 1995). Waiver doctrine, therefore, "has been
    applied against the government in criminal cases, where
    appropriate." United States v. Carrasco-De-Jesus, 
    589 F.3d 22
    , 26
    (1st Cir. 2009). Though we are under no obligation "to do the
    government's homework," United States v. Vega Molina, 
    407 F.3d 511
    , 524 (1st Cir. 2005), "we have discretion to overlook waiver
    by the government in a criminal case when circumstances justify us
    in doing so." 
    Carrasco-De-Jesus, 589 F.3d at 26
    n.1; see generally
    
    Torres-Rosario, 658 F.3d at 116
    ; United States v. Moran, 
    393 F.3d 1
    , 11 (1st Cir. 2004).
    - 11 -
    We do not think there was an intentional abandonment by
    the government, and so there was no waiver.10            Regardless, we would
    in any event choose to reach the issues, and we do not "religiously
    hold[]     waiver   against   the    Government"   when    fairness   dictates
    otherwise.     Dimott v. United States, 
    881 F.3d 232
    , 239 (1st Cir.
    2018) (quotation marks omitted).              There is no unfairness in
    reaching the merits argument but there would be in not reaching
    it.   This is not a case where the government seeks the proverbial
    second bite at the apple due to lack of due diligence or "any
    gamesmanship before the district court."           
    Id. Nor is
    it one where
    "a    prosecutor    attempts    to    rely    on   fleeting   references    to
    unsubstantiated conclusions."           
    Caraballo-Cruz, 52 F.3d at 393
    .
    The government has been forthright about its changed position and
    the reasons underlying this change.
    Our view is consistent with that of several of our sister
    circuits.     The Second Circuit recently considered the government's
    changed position regarding a case-specific, real-world approach,
    and held that the residual clause allowed for this approach.
    10  Further, Douglas has likely waived his own argument on
    the issue of the government's waiver, by not mentioning this
    somewhere in his primary brief but only in his reply brief.
    "[A]rguments developed for the first time in a reply brief are
    waived."   Small Justice LLC v. Xcentric Ventures LLC, 
    873 F.3d 313
    , 323 n.11 (1st Cir. 2017); accord Transupport, Inc. v. Comm'r
    of Internal Revenue, 
    882 F.3d 274
    , 281 n.4 (1st Cir. 2018); Irving
    Tanning Co. v. Kaplan, 
    876 F.3d 384
    , 392 n.7 (1st Cir. 2017).
    - 12 -
    
    Barrett, 903 F.3d at 184
    .11               The Eleventh Circuit, en banc, also
    considered           the   government's      new   position   and     held   that
    "§ 924(c)(3)(B) prescribes a conduct-based approach, pursuant to
    which        the    crime-of-violence      determination   should    be   made   by
    reference to the actual facts and circumstances underlying a
    defendant’s offense."           Ovalles, No. 17-10172, 
    2018 WL 4830079
    , at
    *2.     And the D.C. Circuit and Fifth Circuit both indicated that
    only circuit precedent vitiated the need for consideration of the
    government's argument on a case-specific, real-world approach.
    United States v. Eshetu, 
    898 F.3d 36
    , 37 (D.C. Cir. 2018) (per
    curiam) ("Whatever the clean-slate merits of the government's
    construction, we as a panel are not at liberty to adopt [a case-
    specific           approach]:   circuit    precedent   demands   a   categorical
    approach . . . ."); United States v. Davis, 
    903 F.3d 483
    , 485 (5th
    Cir. 2018) ("[T]he Government argues we can, and should, adopt a
    new 'case specific' method when applying the residual clause
    . . . .        Regardless of whether Dimaya would otherwise permit us to
    do so, we do not find a suggestion by a minority of justices in
    that case sufficient to overrule our prior precedent.").
    11The government's supplemental brief in Barrett made
    similar arguments to the government's brief here, as did the
    government's en banc brief in Ovalles.
    - 13 -
    B.   The Merits of a Case-Specific Approach versus a Categorical
    Approach to § 924(c)(3)(B)
    Douglas     asserts      that     the     residual       clause       at
    § 924(c)(3)(B) is void for vagueness under the reasoning of Johnson
    and Dimaya.   In relevant part, this clause reads:
    (3)    For purposes of this subsection the term
    "crime of violence" means an offense that
    is a felony and— . . .
    (B) that by its nature, involves a
    substantial   risk   that   physical
    force against the person or property
    of another may be used in the course
    of committing the offense.
    18 U.S.C. § 924(c)(3)(B).
    After laying out pertinent Supreme Court precedent, we
    consider the text of § 924(c)(3)(B).           We find that the text of
    § 924(c)(3)(B) can and should be reasonably construed as allowing
    a case-specific approach.       We next consider the statute's context.
    Because § 924(c)(3)(B) requires consideration of a contemporaneous
    offense rather than a prior conviction, this residual clause does
    not raise either the practical or the Sixth Amendment right-to-
    trial concerns that led the Supreme Court to adopt the categorical
    approach in Taylor v. United States, 
    495 U.S. 575
    (1990).                      See
    also Descamps v. United States, 
    570 U.S. 254
    (2013); James v.
    United   States,    
    550 U.S. 192
        (2007).        We     then   consider
    constitutional     avoidance,    because,    if     we   were     to   apply     a
    categorical approach, there could be vagueness problems.
    - 14 -
    Unlike some other circuits, our circuit has not held
    definitively that either the categorical or the case-specific
    approach applies to the residual clause at § 924(c)(3)(B).12             And
    so we have no binding precedent. In Turner, we held without direct
    reference    to   a   categorical     or     case-specific   approach   that
    conspiracy to commit a Hobbs Act robbery was a crime of violence
    under § 924(c)(3)(B).      
    Turner, 501 F.3d at 67
    .           The law of the
    circuit rule -- under which "we are bound by a prior panel
    decision, absent any intervening authority," United States v.
    Grupee, 
    682 F.3d 143
    , 149 (1st Cir. 2012) -- does not bind us
    here.13   See San Juan Cable LLC v. Puerto Rico Tel. Co., 
    612 F.3d 25
    , 33 (1st Cir. 2010); United States v. Malouf, 
    466 F.3d 21
    , 26-
    27 (1st Cir. 2006).
    i.   Supreme Court Precedent
    The Supreme Court first required that the "categorical
    approach" be used to make a determination about a prior state
    12   By contrast, we have held in several cases that a
    categorical approach properly applies to the force clause at
    § 924(c)(3)(A). United States v. Cruz-Rivera, No. 16-1321, 
    2018 WL 4378173
    , at *1 (1st Cir. Sept. 14, 2018); United States v.
    Taylor, 
    848 F.3d 476
    , 491 (1st Cir. 2017).
    13   It is true that some district courts in our circuit have
    held, or assumed, that the categorical approach applies.       See,
    e.g., Rossetti, No. CR 99-10098-RGS, 
    2018 WL 3748161
    , at *2 ("The
    government’s position until recently has been that § 924(c)(3)(B)
    requires a categorical approach — a conclusion that . . . the First
    Circuit has never definitively held but that the lower district
    courts had regularly assumed to be the case."). But of course,
    such decisions are not precedent for this court.
    - 15 -
    conviction in 
    Taylor, 495 U.S. at 602
    , which turned on the proper
    understanding of the definition of burglary in the Armed Career
    Criminal Act (ACCA), in a portion of the statute used to enhance
    sentences for prior offenses.14         The Court concluded that ACCA
    referred to "burglary" in a general sense and therefore required
    a trial court "to look only to the fact of conviction and the
    statutory definition of the prior offense."           
    Id. In justifying
    this,      the   Court   especially   worried    about      the    "practical
    difficulties" of a case-specific analysis for prior convictions.
    It   also    was   concerned   with   possibly   "abridging       [the   Sixth
    Amendment] right to a jury trial."      
    Id. at 601.
         The Court extended
    the categorical approach to the residual clause of ACCA in James,
    and significantly added the "ordinary case" component to the
    categorical 
    analysis. 550 U.S. at 208
    ("[T]he proper inquiry is
    whether the conduct encompassed by the elements of the offense, in
    14   The definition at issue in the case was this:
    (B) the term "violent felony" means any
    crime punishable by imprisonment
    for a term exceeding one year ...
    that—
    (i) has as an element the use,
    attempted use, or threatened
    use of physical force against
    the person of another; or
    (ii) is     burglary,    arson,    or
    extortion, involves use of
    explosives,     or    otherwise
    involves conduct that presents
    a serious potential risk of
    physical injury to another.
    18 U.S.C. § 924(e)(2)(B).
    - 16 -
    the ordinary case, presents a serious potential risk of injury to
    another.").
    In Johnson, which overruled James, the Supreme Court
    held that the definition of "violent felony" in the residual clause
    of ACCA was unconstitutionally 
    vague. 135 S. Ct. at 2555-57
    .
    ACCA's residual clause defined a violent felony, in part, as a
    felony that "involves conduct that presents a serious potential
    risk of physical injury to another." 18 U.S.C. § 924(e)(2)(B)(ii).
    The Court held that "[t]wo features of the residual
    clause conspire[d] to make it unconstitutionally vague."         
    Johnson, 135 S. Ct. at 2557
    .         First, "the residual clause leaves grave
    uncertainty about how to estimate the risk posed by a crime,"
    because the categorical approach "ties the judicial assessment of
    risk to a judicially imagined 'ordinary case' of a crime, not to
    real-world facts or statutory elements."            
    Id. The Court
    noted
    "how   speculative   (and   how   detached   from   statutory   elements)"
    considering an "idealized ordinary case of a crime" can become.
    
    Id. at 2557-58.
         Second, "the residual clause leaves uncertainty
    about how much risk it takes for a crime to qualify as a violent
    felony."   
    Id. at 2558.
         And "[b]y combining indeterminacy about
    how to measure the risk posed by a crime with indeterminacy about
    how much risk it takes for the crime to qualify as a violent
    felony, the residual clause produces more unpredictability and
    arbitrariness than the Due Process Clause tolerates."           
    Id. - 17
    -
    In Dimaya, an alien challenged a deportation order based
    on a state conviction for first-degree burglary, which immigration
    officials found was a "crime of violence" under the federal
    criminal code's residual clause at 18 U.S.C. § 16(b), explicitly
    incorporated by Congress into the Immigration and Nationality Act.
    8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(43)(F).         In relevant part, this residual clause
    defined     "crime      of   violence"    using   the     same     language    as
    § 924(c)(3)(B): a "crime of violence" is a felony "that, by its
    nature, involves a substantial risk that physical force against
    the person or property of another may be used in the course of
    committing the offense."          18 U.S.C. § 16(b).      The government had
    conceded that the categorical approach applied.                  Dimaya, 138 S.
    Ct. 1204, 1217 (2018).
    The Supreme Court determined that the "straightforward
    application" of Johnson dictated the result in Dimaya.                   
    Id. at 1213.
         The same two features -- an "ordinary case" analysis and
    uncertainty about the sufficient degree of risk -- combined in
    "the same constitutionally problematic way" to make the residual
    clause impermissibly vague.         
    Id. The Supreme
    Court majority in Dimaya also referenced the
    Sixth Amendment right-to-trial concerns that led to the initial
    adoption of the categorical approach in Taylor.              See Dimaya, 138
    S.   Ct.    at   1217   (noting    that   the   Supreme   Court     required   a
    categorical approach "in part to avoid . . . Sixth Amendment
    - 18 -
    concerns" (quotation marks and citation omitted)).      In dissent,
    Justice Thomas, joined by Justices Kennedy and Alito, pointed out
    that the "categorical approach was never really about the best
    reading of the text."      
    Id. at 1256
    (Thomas, J., with Kennedy,
    Alito, JJ., dissenting).    Justice Thomas suggested, instead, that
    the "Court adopted that approach to avoid a potential Sixth
    Amendment problem with sentencing judges conducting minitrials to
    determine a defendant's past conduct."     
    Id. So all
    justices in
    Dimaya recognized that the categorical approach was adopted at
    least in part to avoid potential Sixth Amendment problems about
    how to characterize prior convictions.15
    Importantly, in both Dimaya and Johnson, the Supreme
    Court dismissed the notion that uncertainty as to risk evaluation
    of what constitutes a crime of violence was a problem by itself:
    "[W]e do not doubt the constitutionality of laws that call for the
    application of a qualitative standard such as 'substantial risk'
    to real-world conduct; the law is full of instances where a man's
    15   We are aware that the Supreme Court has granted
    certiorari,   vacated   judgment,   and   remanded   for   further
    consideration in light of Dimaya in several cases involving
    convictions under § 924(c)(3)(B). See United States v. Odum, 
    878 F.3d 508
    (6th Cir. 2017), cert. granted, judgment vacated sub nom.
    Frazier v. United States, No. 17-8381, 
    2018 WL 1640324
    (U.S. Oct.
    9, 2018); Manners v. United States, No. 17-1171, 
    2017 WL 3613308
    (6th Cir. Aug. 22, 2017), cert. granted, judgment vacated, No. 17-
    8035, 
    2018 WL 1278398
    (U.S. Oct. 1, 2018); United States v.
    Jackson, 
    865 F.3d 946
    (7th Cir. 2017), cert. granted, judgment
    vacated, 
    138 S. Ct. 1983
    (May 14, 2018). This does not change our
    analysis here.
    - 19 -
    fate depends on his estimating rightly . . . some matter of
    degree[.]"     
    Dimaya, 138 S. Ct. at 1214
    (quoting Johnson, 135 S.
    Ct. at 2561) (brackets and ellipsis in original).
    ii.   The Text of § 924(c)(3)(B)
    Douglas argues that § 924(c)(3)(B)'s text unambiguously
    requires a categorical, ordinary-case approach.                   We disagree, and
    find that statutory language allows for a case-specific approach.
    When determining the meaning of a statutory provision
    that is not defined in the statute, "we look first to its language,
    giving the words used their ordinary meaning."                    Moskal v. United
    States, 
    498 U.S. 103
    , 108 (1990) (quotation marks and citation
    omitted); see In re Hill, 
    562 F.3d 29
    , 32 (1st Cir. 2009) ("We
    assume that the words Congress chose, if not specially defined,
    carry their plain and ordinary meaning.").
    Douglas     argues    that    the      "by   its     nature"     language
    requires a categorical approach.           The word "nature" is not defined
    in the statute.          In ordinary use, "nature" means a "normal and
    characteristic       quality,"     Webster’s         Third      New    International
    Dictionary    1507     (2002),    or    "the    basic     or    inherent     features,
    character,    or   qualities      of    something,"       Oxford      Dictionary   of
    English   1183     (3d    ed.    2010).        In   the    context      of    applying
    § 924(c)(3)(B),      this    "something"        clearly        must   refer   to   the
    predicate offense charged.             But these straightforward dictionary
    definitions do not answer the key question here: whether the
    - 20 -
    offense    whose   "basic     or   inherent      features,     character,     or
    qualities" are considered is the particular real-world conduct of
    the   predicate    offense    charged     or,    instead,    an    "ordinary,"
    idealized, or generic example of that same offense.               See 
    Barrett, 903 F.3d at 182
    .         As the Supreme Court has noted, "in ordinary
    speech words such as 'crime,' 'felony,' 'offense,' and the like
    sometimes refer to a generic crime . . . and sometimes refer to
    the specific acts in which an offender engaged on a specific
    occasion."     Nijhawan v. Holder, 
    557 U.S. 29
    , 33–34 (2009); see
    Mathis v. United States, 
    136 S. Ct. 2243
    , 2252 (2016) (noting that
    language like "offense . . . committed" indicated Congress's intent
    that "judges . . . look into the facts of prior crimes"); United
    States v. Hayes, 
    555 U.S. 415
    , 426 (2009) (holding that a statute
    with the phrase "offense . . . committed by a current or former
    spouse" allowed for case-specific consideration).
    Furthermore, although Douglas does not raise this issue,
    the government also points out that the term "involves" in the
    residual clause is used in several provisions in the Comprehensive
    Crime Control Act of 1984 that require looking into a defendant's
    underlying     conduct    rather   than   a     hypothetical      or   idealized
    offense.     See, e.g., Pub. L. No. 98-473, § 4243, 98 Stat. 1837,
    2059 (Oct. 12, 1984) (changing the requisite burden of proof for
    the release of "a person found not guilty only by reason of
    insanity of an offense involving bodily injury to, or serious
    - 21 -
    damage   to    the   property     of,   another    person,       or   involving   a
    substantial risk of such injury or damage" (emphasis added)); 
    id. at §
    502, 98 Stat. 2068 (setting sentences for drug offenses
    "involving"     specific    types    and     quantities    of     illegal   drugs).
    "Involves," by itself, does not necessarily suggest either a
    categorical or a case-specific approach.            As to § 924(c)(3)(B), it
    is plausible that "by its nature" refers to the real-world conduct
    of a particular offense, and that "involves" also refers to that
    same conduct.        See Ovalles, 17-10172, 
    2018 WL 4830079
    , at *14
    ("[W]e simply aren't convinced that the phrase 'by its nature'
    requires application of the categorical approach here.")
    Douglas   asserts     that   this   textual       understanding     is
    foreclosed by the Supreme Court's interpretation of the nearly
    identically     worded     provision    in    Dimaya,     where    the   plurality
    required a categorical approach.               In his reply brief, Douglas
    argues that Justice Gorsuch, in a concurrence, "acknowledged that
    the   categorical       approach     was     appropriately        employed,"    so,
    according to Douglas, this approach is therefore required for
    § 924(c)(3)(B).      This is incorrect on both counts.
    A four-justice plurality suggested in Dimaya that the
    text of § 16(b) was "[b]est read" as "demand[ing] a categorical
    
    approach." 138 S. Ct. at 1217
    .          Even assuming for the sake of
    argument that this statement applies to the distinct context of
    - 22 -
    § 924(c)(3)(B),16 there was no holding by a majority of the court
    that a categorical approach was required by the text of this
    provision.     And the Supreme Court has held in several cases that
    "[w]hen a fragmented Court decides a case and no single rationale
    explaining the result enjoys the assent of five justices, 'the
    holding of the Court may be viewed as that position taken by those
    Members who concurred in the judgment on the narrowest grounds.'"
    Marks v. United States, 
    430 U.S. 188
    , 193 (1977) (quoting Gregg v.
    Georgia, 
    428 U.S. 153
    , 169 n.15 (1976) (opinion of Stewart, Powell,
    and Stevens, JJ)).
    Justice Gorsuch, who concurred and was the narrowest
    vote in the majority,
    proceeded on the premise that the Immigration
    and Nationality Act, as it incorporates
    § 16(b) of the criminal code, commands courts
    to determine the risk of violence attending
    the ordinary case of conviction for a
    particular crime . . . because no party before
    us has argued for a different way to read these
    statutes in combination; because our precedent
    seemingly requires this approach; and because
    the    government     itself    has    conceded
    (repeatedly) that the law compels it.
    16   The plurality said nothing about § 924(c)(3)(B) in
    Dimaya.   Nor do we assume that similar text across the United
    States code must always be interpreted in exactly the same way:
    context and commensurate congressional intent matter. There are
    clearly exceptions to any presumption that Congress uses the same
    term or language in precisely the same way across different
    statutes. As will be discussed, the general definition in § 16(b)
    is contextually distinct from § 924(c)(3)(B).
    - 23 -
    
    Dimaya, 138 S. Ct. at 1232
    (Gorsuch, J., concurring in part and
    concurring        in   judgment).    Justice        Gorsuch    then     suggested   a
    willingness to consider, "in another case," the textual question
    of whether "precedent and the proper reading of language" meant
    that the categorical approach, or another approach, must apply.
    
    Id. at 1233.
              While Justice Gorsuch accepted the government's
    concession in Dimaya and noted the lack of "adversarial testing"
    or briefing of an alternative approach in that case, 
    id. at 1232,
    he   did   not     determine     that   the   text     of     § 16(b)    required   a
    categorical approach.          And he certainly did not determine anything
    about the text of the contextually distinct § 924(c)(3)(B).
    When the plurality dismissed the possible application of
    the case-specific approach to § 16(b), these justices had already
    stated that taking a case-specific approach would create "Sixth
    Amendment concerns."           
    Id. at 1217
    (quoting 
    Descamps, 570 U.S. at 267
    ).    But for § 924(c)(3)(B), Sixth Amendment concerns around the
    right to trial do not arise because a contemporaneous offense
    rather     than    a   prior    conviction     is    considered.         Thus,   when
    considering the text of § 16(b), the plurality opinion addressed
    a constitutional context distinct from this case.                     And as noted,
    the government had already conceded that the categorical approach
    applied.     Douglas's textual argument is unavailing.
    - 24 -
    iii. The Context of § 924(c)(3)(B)
    We turn now to the context of § 924(c)(3)(B).     As a
    preliminary matter, nothing from Congress suggests a preference
    for applying the categorical approach to § 924(c)(3)(B).    Indeed,
    this residual clause, in exactly the same language as today, was
    in place before the Supreme Court applied the categorical approach
    for the first time in 1990.   18 U.S.C. § 924(e)(2012); Taylor, 
    495 U.S. 575
    .   Thus, Congress could not have demonstrated a preference
    for a judicial approach that did not yet exist when the statute
    was passed.   Instead, the application of the categorical approach
    to aspects of federal recidivist criminal statutes is a judicial
    construct designed to avoid constitutional and practical concerns
    raised by particular context, rather than a choice dictated by
    Congress.
    The context of § 924(c)(3)(B) clearly distinguishes it
    from the textually similar provisions at issue in Dimaya and
    Johnson.    The Supreme Court in Dimaya and Johnson dealt with
    statutes requiring judicial consideration of prior convictions in
    subsequent proceedings.   In contrast, § 924(c)(3)(B) applies only
    to a predicate offense of a pending § 924(c)(1)(A) charge, meaning
    that the predicate offense and the § 924(c)(3)(B) enhancement are
    considered at the same time. The Supreme Court has not yet applied
    the categorical approach to a residual clause that "defines a
    predicate offense for a crime of pending prosecution," Barrett,
    - 25 
    - 903 F.3d at 181
    , rather than to a residual clause that defines a
    qualifying predicate offense based on a prior conviction.
    This    is    a    crucial    distinction.        At    its    core,    the
    categorical approach is a thoughtful judicial construct designed
    for   a   particular       context:       the    judicial    consideration,         under
    federal    statutes,       of    prior     convictions,      often    by       different
    tribunals.       As discussed, the Supreme Court fashioned and refined
    the categorical approach both for practical and constitutional
    reasons    that     are    specific       to    the   consideration       of    a   prior
    conviction.         See, e.g., 
    Taylor, 495 U.S. at 601
    (noting the
    "practical difficulties and potential unfairness of a factual
    approach" when considering a prior conviction).                    Despite Douglas's
    argument    to    the     contrary,   these        reasons   for    the    categorical
    approach do not exist in the distinct context of § 924(c)(3)(B).
    As     to     practical           issues,   the       situation        under
    § 924(c)(3)(B) is different from one in which a court must consider
    prior convictions "adjudicated by different courts in proceedings
    that occurred long before the defendant's [present] sentencing."
    United States v. Robinson, 
    844 F.3d 137
    , 142 (3d Cir. 2016).                         For
    the prior conviction, the earlier court did not have to determine,
    in finding guilt, whether the offense constituted a crime of
    violence unless the particular statute happened to require it.                        In
    addition, a prior conviction could not only be from a different
    tribunal, but could be from many years ago.                    As an illustrative
    - 26 -
    example, in the Supreme Court's initial adoption of the categorical
    approach in Taylor, the underlying prior convictions had been
    adjudicated in state courts in Missouri in 1963 and 1971, whereas
    the defendant's guilty plea to the federal case was in 
    1988. 495 U.S. at 578
    & n.1.       Such an inquiry clearly can be fraught with
    uncertainty, and may even involve some degree of implicit second-
    guessing of prior convictions by other tribunals.              But this issue
    simply does not arise when considering a contemporaneous offense
    as in § 924(c)(3)(B).
    The application of § 924(c)(3)(B) to the real-world
    conduct    described    in   a   pending   charge   means   that   the   facts
    concerning the relevant predicate crime (and whether that amounts
    to a crime of violence) will be in front of a jury, if a case goes
    to trial, or will be accepted by a defendant like Douglas in a
    plea agreement.      See Ovalles, No. 17-10172, 
    2018 WL 4830079
    , at
    *14 (noting "[t]he 'utter impracticability' that Taylor, Johnson,
    and Dimaya identified . . . simply isn’t an issue" because "the
    crimes are typically (as here) charged in the same indictment, and
    if they are tried, they are considered by the same jury."); St.
    
    Hubert, 883 F.3d at 1335
    (noting that in § 924(c) cases, there
    will be "a contemporaneous federal crime charged in the same
    indictment and . . . an already developed factual record").
    Consideration of the facts underlying a pending charge steers clear
    of   the   Supreme     Court's    understandable     concern    about    prior
    - 27 -
    convictions with the "impracticability of requiring a sentencing
    court to reconstruct, long after the original conviction, the
    conduct underlying that conviction."          
    Johnson, 135 S. Ct. at 2562
    ;
    see 
    Dimaya, 138 S. Ct. at 1218
    .
    Douglas argues further that a case-specific approach
    would be unworkable and, in his words, lead to "absurd results."
    However, Douglas provides no evidence of such a problem.                    Courts
    around the country have succeeded at this task in the sentencing
    context.    Numerous federal criminal laws, like § 924(c)(3)(B),
    "require gauging the riskiness of conduct in which an individual
    defendant engages on a particular occasion."             
    Johnson, 135 S. Ct. at 2561
    ; see 
    Dimaya, 138 S. Ct. at 1215
    ("[T]he point is not that
    such a non-numeric standard [like substantial risk] is alone
    problematic."). On the whole, it is at least as practical to allow
    a jury to parse carefully between crimes based on specific real-
    world conduct rather than, under a categorical approach, to force
    judges to be willfully blind to particular facts and thus to go
    "down the rabbit hole . . . to a realm where we must close our
    eyes as judges to what we know as men and women."                United States
    v. Davis, 
    875 F.3d 592
    , 595 (11th Cir. 2017).
    The   Supreme   Court    has   suggested     that    such   a   fact-
    specific    approach,   "deal[ing]     with      the   actual,   not    with   an
    imaginary   condition   other       than   the   facts,"   can    create     more
    predictability that less fact-bound inquires.            Johnson, 135 S. Ct.
    - 28 -
    at 2561 (quoting Int'l Harvester Co. of Am. v. Kentucky, 
    234 U.S. 216
    ,    223   (1914)).      Juries    have   the     ability    to   evaluate     and
    understand real-world conduct.          And in § 924(c)(3)(B), there is no
    link of the "substantial risk" language to a "confusing list of
    examples," 
    id., nor is
    there any other particularly confusing
    factor distinguishing § 924(c)(3)(B) from other laws that require
    juries to consider real-world conduct.
    Beyond   these    practical    distinctions,       the     difference
    between evaluating a prior conviction and evaluating an alleged
    predicate crime charged contemporaneously in the same indictment
    is important with regard to the Sixth Amendment right-to-trial
    concerns that motivated the categorical approach.                      In Dimaya, a
    plurality suggested that taking a case-specific approach to § 16(b)
    would    "merely    ping-pong    us   from     one   constitutional       issue   to
    another," because the categorical approach was imposed in part to
    "avoid[]      the   Sixth   Amendment   concerns      that     would    arise   from
    sentencing courts' making findings of fact that properly belong to
    juries."      
    Dimaya, 138 S. Ct. at 1217
    (quoting 
    Descamps, 570 U.S. at 267
    ); see Apprendi v. New Jersey, 
    530 U.S. 466
    , 490 (2000)
    (holding that "any fact that increases the penalty for a crime
    beyond the . . . statutory maximum must be submitted to a jury").
    Here, because the residual clause at § 924(c)(3)(B)
    requires a consideration of a contemporaneous predicate offense
    rather than a past conviction, the finding of fact would be made
    - 29 -
    by a jury (or stipulated in a plea agreement), thus raising no
    Sixth Amendment problem.            See Ovalles, No. 17-10172, 
    2018 WL 4830079
    , at *15 (noting no Sixth Amendment issues when taking a
    conduct-specific approach to § 924(c)).            A defendant like Douglas
    has the chance to contest the relevant facts either at trial or in
    plea negotiations.      If for whatever reason a defendant cannot or
    will not accept the prosecution's version of the facts, either in
    whole in or part, he or she maintains the constitutional right to
    contest these facts at trial in front of a jury.                By considering
    a contemporaneous offense, then, a "defendant suffers no prejudice
    because the court is not finding any new facts which are not of
    record in the case before it."         
    Robinson, 844 F.3d at 143
    .        Here,
    the district court had the relevant facts concerning all charges
    against Douglas, and Douglas had the right to contest them as he
    saw fit.
    iv.    Constitutional Avoidance
    If   we    were    to    take     a   categorical    approach   to
    § 924(c)(3)(B),       there    could   be     constitutional     problems   of
    vagueness after Dimaya, given that this approach would layer the
    two features at issue in Johnson and Dimaya in the same problematic
    way.    The principle of constitutional avoidance further supports
    our    determination    that    a   case-specific,     real-world     approach
    applies to § 924(c)(3)(B).
    - 30 -
    Constitutional avoidance is an "interpretive tool . . .
    counseling that ambiguous statutory language be construed to avoid
    serious     constitutional   doubts."         F.C.C.    v.    Fox    Television
    Stations, Inc., 
    556 U.S. 502
    , 516 (2009).              Under this principle,
    the "elementary rule is that every reasonable construction must be
    resorted to, in order to save a statute from unconstitutionality."
    Skilling v. United States, 
    561 U.S. 358
    , 406 (2010) (quotation
    marks and emphasis omitted); see Jennings v. Rodriguez, 
    138 S. Ct. 830
    , 836 (2018) ("[W]hen statutory language is susceptible of
    multiple interpretations, a court may shun an interpretation that
    raises serious constitutional doubts and instead may adopt an
    alternative that avoids those problems.").
    Importantly, a court must start its inquiry with normal
    analysis:    the   canon   "comes    into    play   only     when,   after   the
    application of ordinary textual analysis, the statute is found to
    be susceptible of more than one construction."             Clark v. Martinez,
    
    543 U.S. 371
    , 385 (2005); see United States v. Oakland Cannabis
    Buyers' Cooperative, 
    532 U.S. 483
    , 494 (2001) (holding that this
    canon "has no application in the absence of . . . ambiguity").
    The chosen interpretation must be "plausible."             
    Clark, 543 U.S. at 381
    ; see 
    Jennings, 138 S. Ct. at 842
    (holding that the Ninth
    Circuit "misapplied the [constitutional avoidance] canon . . .
    because its interpretations of the three provisions at issue here
    are implausible").
    - 31 -
    As    discussed,         there       is      a     clearly         "plausible"
    interpretation        here   that    does    not      raise     potential           vagueness
    problems:    a   case-specific       approach,          looking     at    a    defendant's
    actual conduct in determining whether a "crime of violence" has
    been    committed.       Taking      this    approach         avoids      constitutional
    problems and, in turn, provides due respect to Congress, in
    presuming that Congress does not intend to craft unconstitutional
    laws.     See Diop v. ICE/Homeland Sec., 
    656 F.3d 221
    , 231 (3d Cir.
    2011).
    To   be    clear,   we    are    not      creating      any       new    rule   of
    constitutional law here.            Nor are we saying that Dimaya compels
    the result in this case. Instead, we are simply noting that taking
    the     categorical      approach      to        this        statute      might       create
    constitutional problems.        Therefore, interpreting the provision in
    another plausible way after ordinary textual analysis obviates
    this issue.
    C.      Douglas's Conspiracy          as     a    "Crime       of      Violence"        Under
    § 924(c)(3)(B)
    Finally, we turn to whether Douglas's conspiracy -- when
    considering the "real-world conduct", 
    Johnson, 135 S. Ct. at 2561
    -- qualifies as a crime of violence under § 924(c)(3)(B).                             We hold
    that it does.
    To be clear, we do not hold that all conspiracies to
    commit Hobbs Act robbery would constitute crimes of violence under
    - 32 -
    §    924(c)(3)(B).     When      applying    a   case-specific,     real-world
    approach, some such conspiracies would not qualify.                In this, we
    differ from Barrett, which held, as an alternative to its adoption
    of the case-specific approach, that conspiracy to commit a Hobbs
    Act robbery is necessarily a crime of violence because "conspiracy
    to commit a crime of violence is itself a crime of 
    violence." 903 F.3d at 175
    .       And the government says it disagrees with this
    alternative holding in Barrett.
    Here, the district court properly explained the elements
    of the § 924(c) charge to Douglas. See Fed. R. Crim. P. 11(b)(1)(G)
    (requiring the district court to determine that "the defendant
    understands . . . the nature of each charge to which the defendant
    is   pleading").17    Douglas's      conditional     plea   came    after   the
    district court's order, denying his motion to dismiss, expressly
    determined that his actions constituted a "crime of violence" under
    § 924(c).    Furthermore, the acts that Douglas admitted to in his
    guilty plea amply demonstrate that he committed a "crime of
    violence" as defined in the residual clause.
    This   court   has    earlier    said,   without   reference     to
    whether a categorical or case-specific approach should be used,
    that "a Hobbs Act conspiracy is a 'crime of violence' for purposes
    17  Even if there were error here, it would surely be
    harmless based on the facts that Douglas accepted in his plea
    agreement.
    - 33 -
    of Section 924(c)" under the residual clause.           
    Turner, 501 F.3d at 67
    .18    We are at this point unwilling to say that the question can
    be resolved as a matter of law.        We think it properly must go to
    the jury for determination, if there is a trial.
    Douglas's   conspiracy   to   commit   a   Hobbs   Act   robbery
    qualifies as a "crime of violence" because "by its nature, [it]
    involve[d] a substantial risk that physical force against the
    person or property of another may be used in the course of
    committing the offense." 18 U.S.C. § 924(c)(3)(B). Douglas joined
    the conspiracy knowing its goal.            Three of the conspirators,
    including Douglas, used substantial violence in the course of the
    robbery.     As discussed, during the robbery one or more of the
    conspirators: dragged a victim by the head through a hallway;
    brandished firearms; forced several victims around the house and
    18Accord United States v. Taylor, 
    176 F.3d 331
    , 338 (6th
    Cir. 1999) ("[A] conspiracy to commit a robbery that violates the
    Hobbs Act is necessarily a conspiracy that, by its nature, involves
    a substantial risk that physical force may be used against the
    person or property of another, and therefore is a crime of violence
    within the meaning of section 924(c)."); United States v. Phan,
    
    121 F.3d 149
    , 152–53 (4th Cir. 1997) (holding, among other things,
    that conspiracy to commit Hobbs Act robbery is a crime of violence
    under 924(c)); United States v. Elder, 
    88 F.3d 127
    , 129 (2d Cir.
    1996) ("[A] Hobbs Act conspiracy to commit robbery is by definition
    a conspiracy that involves a substantial risk that physical force
    may be used against the person or property of another."); United
    States v. Mendez, 
    992 F.2d 1488
    , 1492 (9th Cir. 1992) ("[W]here
    conspirators agree to use actual or threatened force, or violence
    to obtain personal property from another . . . the risk that
    physical force may be used in the course of the conspiracy is
    substantial within the meaning of § 924(c)(3)(B)." (quotation
    marks and citation omitted)).
    - 34 -
    outside with guns pressed against their heads, threatened to kill
    a victim multiple times; and beat all three victims with a crowbar,
    bloodying at least one.    The conspirators committed this violence
    in furtherance of the conspiracy's goals, namely to steal oxycodone
    and proceeds of drug dealing. We do not determine the "substantial
    risk" of violence of a conspiracy by the conspiracy's outcome, and
    many conspiracies could pose a "substantial risk" of violence where
    little or no violence actually occurs, see 
    Turner, 501 F.3d at 67
    ;
    
    Phan, 121 F.3d at 152
    .
    III. Conclusion
    For   the   foregoing    reasons,   we   affirm   the   district
    court's denial of the motion to dismiss a portion of Count Six and
    affirm Douglas's conviction under § 924(c)(3)(B).
    - 35 -