Ignacio Balaez Serra v. U.S. Attorney General ( 2023 )


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  • USCA11 Case: 21-10471    Document: 55-1      Date Filed: 02/15/2023    Page: 1 of 22
    [PUBLISH]
    In the
    United States Court of Appeals
    For the Eleventh Circuit
    ____________________
    No. 21-10471
    ____________________
    IGNACIO BALAEZ SERRA,
    Petitioner,
    versus
    U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL,
    Respondent.
    ____________________
    Petition for Review of a Decision of the
    Board of Immigration Appeals
    Agency No. A213-218-830
    ____________________
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    2                         Opinion of the Court                    21-10471
    Before WILSON, JILL PRYOR, Circuit Judges, and RUIZ, * District
    Judge.
    RUIZ, District Judge:
    For decades, the authoritarian regime in Cuba has utilized
    its police force to intimidate and physically assault political dissi-
    dents and peaceful demonstrators throughout the island. 1 Ignacio
    Balaez Serra, a Cuban immigrant seeking asylum in the United
    States, maintains he experienced this abuse first-hand after multiple
    arrests, imprisonments, and beatings by the Cuban police.
    Serra seeks review of the Board of Immigration Appeals’
    (“BIA”) final order affirming the Immigration Judge’s (“IJ”) denial
    of Serra’s application for asylum, withholding of removal under the
    Immigration and Nationality Act (“INA”), and relief under the
    United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel In-
    humane or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (“CAT”) (to-
    gether, “Application”). The IJ denied Serra’s Application, finding
    Serra’s testimony “not credible.”
    In reaching this adverse credibility determination, the IJ
    cited two inconsistencies between Serra’s hearing testimony and
    * Honorable Rodolfo A. Ruiz II, United States District Judge for the Southern
    District of Florida, sitting by designation.
    1 See U.S. Department of State, 2021 Country Reports on Human Rights Prac-
    tices: Cuba (2021), https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-country-reports-on-
    human-rights-practices/cuba/.
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    21-10471                Opinion of the Court                         3
    Application. The first purported inconsistency dealt with the tim-
    ing of Serra’s passage of a kidney stone; specifically, whether he
    passed it on the day he was beaten by Cuban police or several days
    thereafter. The second pertained to the number of countries Serra
    passed through en route to the United States; he listed ten countries
    in his written Application but later testified that he traveled
    through “about 11 or 12.” The IJ also reached his adverse credibil-
    ity determination based on Serra’s perceived non-responsiveness to
    certain questions. On appeal, the BIA rejected the IJ’s finding that
    Serra was non-responsive but affirmed the IJ’s adverse credibility
    determination based on the two inconsistencies alone.
    After careful review and with the benefit of oral argument,
    we conclude the record lacks substantial evidence that would allow
    us to affirm the adverse credibility determination. We therefore
    reverse and remand.
    I.
    Serra first arrived at the United States border in Presidio,
    Texas, on November 6, 2019, to seek asylum. Throughout the asy-
    lum process, Serra had three opportunities to explain his basis for
    seeking asylum. Serra was initially questioned by an immigration
    official during a “credible fear interview.” Then, after an officer
    determined Serra’s fear was credible, he filled out a written Appli-
    cation for asylum. And once Serra submitted his Application, he
    testified before an IJ in a final hearing on the merits. Serra de-
    scribed his life prior to his arrival in the United States on all three
    occasions. The following facts are derived from these submissions.
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    4                         Opinion of the Court                     21-10471
    Serra claims he was, and continues to be, in severe danger in
    Cuba due to his political beliefs. This danger stems from Serra’s
    two-year mandatory military service beginning at age seventeen.
    While enlisted, Serra was imprisoned for approximately one year
    after he stopped appearing for military service following com-
    plaints to his superiors about mistreatment in the military. Serra
    contends that as a result, he was labeled a counter-revolutionary.
    Beginning in 2017, years after this initial incarceration in Cuba, he
    was imprisoned three more times for, in Serra’s opinion, failure to
    participate in mandatory political activities and because Regla, his
    home municipality, is known for counter-revolutionary activity. 2
    During these periods of incarceration, Serra was physically
    and verbally assaulted by the Cuban police. Serra claimed that on
    one occasion he was arrested near his house and detained at a po-
    lice station for four days. Serra reported that during this detention
    the police hit him with batons, broke his tooth on a bar, and kicked
    him in his ribs. As a result of this beating, Serra passed a kidney
    stone. The report from Serra’s credible fear interview indicates he
    passed the kidney stone on the day the police kicked him.
    Shortly thereafter, Serra decided to leave Cuba. Serra, with
    his son and his son’s mother, traveled to the United States from
    2 Specifically, Serra described Regla “as the most worm municipality in Cuba.”
    The term “worm,” or gusano, was used by Fidel Castro to describe counter-
    revolutionaries, but is now embraced by the opposition to the authoritarian
    regime in Cuba.
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    21-10471                Opinion of the Court                        5
    Cuba over the course of two years, which included: (1) a one-year
    stay in Bolivia, (2) travel by land from Bolivia to Mexico, and (3) a
    seven-month stay in Mexico.
    When Serra arrived at the United States border, he was
    taken into custody and later given an I-870 credible fear interview
    to determine his eligibility to file for asylum. Serra received a pos-
    itive credible fear determination on February 5, 2020. That same
    day, the Department of Homeland Security (“DHS”) served him
    with a Notice to Appear that charged him with removal pursuant
    to Section 212 of the INA, 
    8 U.S.C. § 1182
    . Serra subsequently sub-
    mitted an I-589 Application for asylum, where, for the second time,
    he provided information regarding his background and reasons for
    seeking asylum.
    On July 20, 2020, Serra appeared pro se at a merits hearing
    via tele-video. At the hearing, Serra provided testimony in re-
    sponse to questions from the IJ and a DHS attorney, recounting his
    background and reasons for seeking asylum for a third time. The
    IJ asked Serra how the Cuban police officers beat him and whether
    they did anything else to him. As part of Serra’s response, he testi-
    fied, “I released a kidney stone the size of a one-centimeter kidney
    stone.” The IJ asked Serra, “you released a kidney stone while they
    were beating you? I just want to make sure I understand that. And
    can you tell me how that happened?” At that point, the interpreter
    asked the IJ for “permission to inquire.” Then, Serra responded,
    “[n]o, no, no, no. This, this was days after when I released that kid-
    ney stone.” Additionally, the IJ asked about the countries Serra
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    6                        Opinion of the Court                  21-10471
    traveled through before he arrived in the United States, and Serra
    responded, in part, “[i]t was about 11 or 12 countries in total.”
    Serra did not present any other witnesses or documentary
    evidence in support of his claims. Thus, the record before the IJ
    consisted of the Notice to Appear, the summary of Serra’s credible
    fear interview, Serra’s written Application and supplements to it,
    and Serra’s testimony.
    The IJ issued an oral ruling at the conclusion of the hearing.
    The IJ found Serra’s testimony was not credible and that Serra did
    not otherwise corroborate his claims. The IJ therefore denied
    Serra’s Application. In support of the IJ’s finding that Serra was not
    credible, the IJ held that Serra’s testimony was inconsistent with his
    prior statements to immigration officers and his written Applica-
    tion. First, the IJ held it was inconsistent for Serra to indicate that
    “he passed a kidney stone on the day he was kicked by the police
    officers” in his I-870 credible fear interview but later testify that “he
    did not pass the kidney stone until seven days after being arrested.”
    Second, the IJ stated that it was inconsistent for Serra’s I-589 Appli-
    cation to “list[] 10 countries that he passed through prior to his en-
    try into the United States” but for Serra to testify “to 11 or 12 coun-
    tries that he passed through.”
    Additionally, the IJ “note[d]” Serra was “non-responsive to
    questions asked by the Court as well as questions asked by DHS
    Counsel.” Specifically, the IJ found Serra to be non-responsive
    when questioned about whether he received medical attention af-
    ter he was released from jail. The IJ concluded, “as the respondent
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    21-10471                   Opinion of the Court                              7
    is not credible, he has to corroborate his claims under the REAL ID
    Act of 2005. Since he has not provided sufficient corroborations
    [sic] for his claims made in the I-589 [Application] and his in-court
    testimony, his applications for relief are hereby denied.” After de-
    livering the oral decision, the IJ stated, “I’m going to now give a
    longer decision. I just wanted to go ahead and advise you first of
    what my decision will be. I’m going to ask that you be patient
    while I put the Court’s decision on the record.” However, the only
    written decision is a verbatim reproduction of the oral ruling.
    Serra appealed to the BIA. The BIA affirmed in part, holding
    “[b]ased on the totality of the circumstances we decline to disturb
    the Immigration Judge’s ultimate adverse credibility determina-
    tion.” Addressing the IJ’s finding of two inconsistencies, the BIA
    concluded, “we are unpersuaded by the respondent’s appellate ar-
    guments that the Immigration Judge committed clear error in mak-
    ing his findings in this regard.” However, addressing the IJ’s find-
    ing of non-responsiveness, the BIA held the IJ “clearly erred in spe-
    cifically finding that [Serra] was non-responsive as to whether he
    actually sought medical attention after his May 2017 arrest.” Thus,
    while the IJ’s adverse credibility determination was initially based
    on four examples in the record, the BIA’s affirmance hinges only
    on Serra’s purportedly inconsistent testimony regarding his kidney
    stone and the countries through which he traveled. 3
    3 In response to Serra’s argument that the IJ should have given him an oppor-
    tunity to explain inconsistencies in his testimony, the BIA also observed, “the
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    8                          Opinion of the Court                       21-10471
    II.
    We generally review decisions of the BIA only. Jathursan v.
    U.S. Att’y Gen., 
    17 F.4th 1365
    , 1372 (11th Cir. 2021). But where, as
    here, the BIA issues a decision relying in part on the IJ’s reasoning,
    we review both decisions. 
    Id.
    In reviewing the IJ and BIA’s decisions, we review legal con-
    clusions de novo and factual findings under the “substantial evi-
    dence” test. Forgue v. U.S. Att’y Gen., 
    401 F.3d 1282
    , 1286 (11th
    Cir. 2005). That means we will only disturb the IJ and BIA’s factual
    findings if they are not supported by “reasonable, substantial, and
    probative evidence” when considering the entire record.
    Jathursan, 17 F.4th at 1372. “The IJ’s factual determinations, in-
    cluding credibility determinations, are reviewed under a substan-
    tial evidence standard, which provides that the IJ’s decision can be
    reversed only if the evidence compels a reasonable fact finder to
    find otherwise.” Chen v. U.S. Att’y Gen., 
    463 F.3d 1228
    , 1230–31
    (11th Cir. 2006) (citation omitted). “We review the record evi-
    dence in the light most favorable to the agency’s decision and draw
    United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit has not directly ad-
    dressed in a precedential opinion whether an Immigration Judge must provide
    an asylum applicant an opportunity to explain discrepancies that form the ba-
    sis of an adverse credibility finding.” Thus, the BIA did not require that the IJ
    provide Serra with an opportunity to explain the purported inconsistencies
    upon affirming the denial of Serra’s Application. Because we reverse for lack
    of substantial evidence, we need not reach this issue.
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    21-10471                Opinion of the Court                         9
    all reasonable inferences in favor of that decision.” Recinos v. U.S.
    Att’y Gen., 
    566 F.3d 965
    , 967 (11th Cir. 2009) (alteration adopted).
    III.
    Serra argues that the BIA’s decision affirming the IJ’s denial
    of his Application is not supported by substantial evidence. Specif-
    ically, Serra avers the BIA erred in holding that the two purported
    inconsistencies between his hearing testimony and other written
    statements support an adverse credibility determination. In re-
    sponse, the Government argues that the IJ may rely on any incon-
    sistency, so these particular discrepancies are sufficient to support
    the adverse credibility determination at issue. Moreover, the Gov-
    ernment argues Serra’s credible fear interview answers and merits
    hearing testimony “materially diverged,” and Serra failed to pro-
    vide any documentary evidence.
    Serra seeks three forms of relief: asylum, withholding of re-
    moval under the INA, and withholding of removal under CAT.
    The Attorney General has discretion to grant asylum to an appli-
    cant who qualifies as a “refugee.” 
    8 U.S.C. § 1158
    (b)(1). To estab-
    lish “refugee” status, the applicant must establish “(1) past persecu-
    tion on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a par-
    ticular social group, or political opinion; or (2) a well-founded fear
    of future persecution on account of a statutorily-protected
    ground.” Hasan-Nayem v. U.S. Att’y Gen., 
    55 F.4th 831
    , 843 (11th
    Cir. 2022) (citing Forgue, 
    401 F.3d at 1287
    ). “To meet [this] burden,
    the applicant must offer ‘credible, direct, and specific evidence’ into
    the record.” 
    Id.
     Similarly, under the INA, “the Attorney General
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    10                       Opinion of the Court                  21-10471
    may not remove an alien to a country if the Attorney General de-
    cides that the alien’s life or freedom would be threatened in that
    country because of the alien’s race, religion, nationality, member-
    ship in a particular social group, or political opinion.” 
    8 U.S.C. § 1231
    (b)(3)(A). And to obtain CAT relief, an applicant must show
    that it is more likely than not that the applicant would be tortured
    if removed to the proposed country of removal. 
    8 C.F.R. § 208.16
    (c).
    To obtain all three types of relief, “[t]he testimony of the ap-
    plicant may be sufficient to sustain the applicant’s burden without
    corroboration, but only if the applicant satisfies the trier of fact that
    the applicant’s testimony is credible, is persuasive, and refers to
    specific facts sufficient to demonstrate that the applicant is a refu-
    gee.” 
    8 U.S.C. § 1158
    (b)(1)(B)(ii); see also 
    8 U.S.C. § 1231
    (b)(3)(C);
    
    8 C.F.R. § 208.16
    (c)(2). Accordingly, oral testimony at a merits
    hearing can be sufficient on its own to meet the applicant’s burden.
    If the IJ explicitly determines that the applicant lacks credibility, the
    IJ must provide “specific, cogent reasons for the finding.” Forgue,
    
    401 F.3d at 1287
    . The burden then shifts to the applicant to show
    that the credibility decision was either not supported by “specific,
    cogent reasons” or was not based on “substantial evidence.” 
    Id.
    The REAL ID Act of 2005 amended our pre-existing asylum
    statutory scheme, in part, to instruct IJs on how to properly deter-
    mine credibility during removal proceedings. The REAL ID Act
    created a “totality of the circumstances” standard, requiring IJs to
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    21-10471                 Opinion of the Court                         11
    consider “all relevant factors” before reaching a conclusion as to
    credibility. 
    8 U.S.C. § 1158
     (b)(1)(B)(iii). The statute states:
    Considering the totality of the circumstances, and all
    relevant factors, a trier of fact may base a credibility
    determination on the demeanor, candor, or respon-
    siveness of the applicant or witness, the inherent plau-
    sibility of the applicant’s or witness’s account, the
    consistency between the applicant’s or witness’s writ-
    ten and oral statements (whenever made and
    whether or not under oath, and considering the cir-
    cumstances under which the statements were made),
    the internal consistency of each such statement, the
    consistency of such statements with other evidence of
    record (including the reports of the Department of
    State on country conditions), and any inaccuracies or
    falsehoods in such statements, without regard to
    whether an inconsistency, inaccuracy, or falsehood
    goes to the heart of the applicant’s claim, or any other
    relevant factor . . . .
    
    Id.
     Thus, the plain language of the REAL ID Act grants IJs broad
    discretion when making credibility determinations. This broad dis-
    cretion is crucial since the IJ is best positioned to observe live testi-
    mony from the applicant and witnesses. See Todorovic v. U.S.
    Att’y Gen., 
    621 F.3d 1318
    , 1324–25 (11th Cir. 2010).
    Notably, however, such discretion is not without limitation.
    The statute requires IJs to evaluate testimony and consider incon-
    sistencies, omissions, or contradictions not in isolation, but in light
    of the “totality of the circumstances, and all relevant factors.” 8
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    12                      Opinion of the Court                 21-
    10471 U.S.C. § 1158
     (b)(1)(B)(iii). This language prevents an IJ from
    cherry picking certain facts favoring an adverse credibility determi-
    nation or excessively focusing on insignificant testimonial incon-
    sistencies to ascertain a lack of credibility. And although the statute
    broadly permits IJs to consider “the consistency between the appli-
    cant’s or witness’s written and oral statements,” IJs must neverthe-
    less “consider[] the circumstances under which the statements
    were made.” 
    8 U.S.C. § 1158
     (b)(1)(B)(iii). Moreover, the IJ “must
    consider the issues raised and announce their decision in terms suf-
    ficient to enable a reviewing court to perceive that they have heard
    and thought and not merely reacted.” Hasan-Nayem, 55 F.4th at
    844.
    Our precedent distinguishes between credibility determina-
    tions based on demeanor versus those that are not. The former are
    “largely unreviewable.” Todorovic, 
    621 F.3d at 1325
    . We have
    long recognized that an IJ possesses a unique perspective as the
    only adjudicator who personally observes an asylum-seeker’s testi-
    mony. See 
    id. at 1324
    . However, credibility determinations that
    do not rely on demeanor must “rest on substantial evidence, rather
    than conjecture or speculation.” Id. at 1235. Here, neither remain-
    ing reason supporting the IJ’s adverse credibility determination in-
    volves an evaluation of Serra’s demeanor, or any other factors that
    require first-hand observation. So, we consider whether the two
    reasons given are supported by substantial evidence.
    For guidance, we turn to two relevant cases that apply the
    REAL ID Act to determine whether “substantial evidence” exists.
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    21-10471                Opinion of the Court                       13
    In Kueviakoe v. U.S. Attorney General, we considered whether
    three perceived inconsistencies between hearing testimony and
    previous statements justified the denial of an asylum application.
    
    567 F.3d 1301
    , 1305 (11th Cir. 2009). The perceived inconsistencies
    we considered were (1) Kueviakoe’s use of the words “truck” and
    “car” in the credible fear interview and hearing testimony respec-
    tively, to describe the same vehicle; (2) a discrepancy between
    Kueviakoe’s credible fear interview statement that he was “ar-
    rested and tortured for two days,” and his testimony that he was
    only beaten on the first day of his two-day imprisonment; and (3) a
    discrepancy in the timeline of Kueviakoe’s hospitalization and
    treatment in his written application and hearing testimony. 
    567 F.3d at
    1305–06. We held that the record “compel[ed]” us to re-
    verse because the three “identified inconsistencies were not suffi-
    cient to support a finding of lack of credibility because they were
    not inconsistencies at all; that is, no reasonable fact-finder could
    conclude on this record that they were inconsistencies.” 
    Id. at 1305
    .
    Our analysis regarding the use of the words “truck” and
    “car” to describe the same vehicle is instructive here. We held,
    “[w]e do not see an inconsistency of any importance in the word
    choice.” 
    Id.
     One reason for that conclusion was, “Kueviakoe’s
    words, in both cases, were translated from French, suggesting that
    he was not the one making the word choice.” 
    Id.
     Our second and
    “[m]ore significant[]” reason, was that “in both instances, all of the
    other pertinent information remained the same.” 
    Id.
     We
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    14                     Opinion of the Court                 21-10471
    elaborated, “with respect to his comment about having been
    dragged to a car, he stated that ten people were with him in the
    vehicle.” 
    Id.
     From this we concluded, “[t]here is no plausible and
    material inconsistency between a ‘car’ accommodating ten people
    and a ‘truck’ accommodating ten people.” 
    Id.
     In other words, it is
    not as though Kueviakoe testified first that he was dragged into a
    car with three people and later that it was a truck filled with dozens
    of people. A third reason this did not support the adverse credibil-
    ity determination was because in Kueviakoe’s first statement, he
    “described the vehicles that the military and police arrived in as
    ‘trucks’ and then later as ‘cars,’” which we held demonstrated “a
    failure to distinguish between the two words.” 
    Id.
     We concluded,
    “[s]imply put, a reading of the record compels the conclusion that
    this difference in terminology is wholly immaterial.” 
    Id.
    Next, we consider our opinion in Tang v. U.S. Attorney
    General, where we again reversed an IJ’s adverse credibility deter-
    mination. 
    578 F.3d 1270
     (11th Cir. 2009). There, as here, the IJ
    initially provided four reasons to support the adverse credibility de-
    termination, the BIA rejected two of them, and we considered the
    remaining two. Of the remaining two, the basis for one adverse
    credibility determination was that the applicant’s “statements
    about whether she was ‘Christian’ prior to joining an underground
    family church in China were inconsistent.” 
    Id. at 1278
    . We noted
    that when an IJ “considers the circumstances” under which state-
    ments are made (as required by the REAL ID Act), the IJ should
    consider the variables in play when the statements were given.
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    21-10471                Opinion of the Court                        15
    Specifically, “the IJ found inconsistencies between Tang’s testi-
    mony at her airport interview and her testimony at her credible
    fear interview and asylum hearing with regard to her early Chris-
    tian experience. The IJ concluded that Tang was inconsistent be-
    cause she did not mention her [early-life] Catholic-church attend-
    ance during her airport interview.” 
    Id.
     In other words, Tang’s
    hearing testimony provided more information than her initial
    statement. But we held that the “IJ should note that during an air-
    port interview, unlike in a hearing with full due process accorded,
    the alien . . . may be markedly intimidated by official questioning,
    particularly if the alien has indeed been subject to government
    abuse in her country of origin.” 
    Id. at 1279
    . Further, we concluded,
    “[a]lthough [Tang’s] hearing testimony was more in depth, she said
    nothing that cannot be squared with her earlier statements. Again,
    on these facts, that which the IJ considered an inconsistency, we
    identify only as a helpful elaboration.” 
    Id. at 1280
    .
    With these examples in mind, we turn to the bases for the
    IJ’s adverse credibility determination against Serra.
    A. Kidney Stone
    First, the IJ concluded that it was inconsistent for Serra to
    indicate that “he passed a kidney stone on the day he was kicked by
    the police officers” in his I-870 interview, but later testify that “he
    did not release the kidney stone until seven days after being ar-
    rested.” Serra’s statement in his credible fear interview about pass-
    ing a kidney stone is found in a (1) summary of the interview; (2)
    written by an immigration officer after questioning Serra; (3)
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    16                      Opinion of the Court                21-10471
    through a Spanish-speaking interpreter. The document itself states
    it is “not a verbatim transcript.” Indeed, it is rife with errors. The
    I-870 interview reflects the following exchange about the second
    occasion that Serra was arrested:
    Q: Where were you the second time?
    A: I was sitting below my house.
    Q: How [sic] hurt you second time?
    A: They hit me with the batons, put my head in the
    bar. They broke my tooth, my mouth. They put me
    in jail. They were hitting me all the time. The [sic]
    stuck my head between the bars in the cell. I passed
    a kidney stone that day, because of the kicks they gave
    me.
    Q: Do anything else to you?
    A: That day, nothing else.
    Q: Did you have any injuries?
    A: That night, I had colleagues [sic] because of my kid-
    ney stone.
    Q: Did you have any injuries besides the kidney
    stone?
    A: No injuries other than they broke my tooth and
    my whole face was swollen.
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    21-10471               Opinion of the Court                        17
    This was the only line of questioning in the I-870 interview that
    addressed the second time Serra was harmed by the police. The I-
    870 interview did not address whether Serra received medical at-
    tention, where he was when he released the kidney stone, or what
    happened when the stone was released.
    Months later, at the merits hearing, the IJ asked Serra about
    this incident. The IJ asked Serra, “when you say they beat you,
    what do you mean by beat? Or how did they beat you?” Serra
    answered,
    Well, okay. From the office, that’s where they began
    to beat me. And, well, after that, the captain said to
    the dungeon. Take him to the dungeon. And well, I
    was taken. I was, they took me to the dungeon and
    then, well, there, you see, there’s this somewhat of a,
    these bars or a fence there where they pressed my
    face against it and, well, I, that’s where I broke my
    tooth right here. You see this tooth right here. I
    broke it. And then this other one over here too. Two
    of them. Two of them are broke. And, well, my
    head. My head became swollen as well.
    Then the IJ asked, “did they do anything else to you?” Serra an-
    swered,
    Once in the dungeon, well, I mean, I was on the floor,
    and they kicked me. It’s unfortunate that I cannot
    show you exactly or prove to you exactly how they
    did that. I can, however, tell you that I released a kid-
    ney stone the size of a one-centimeter kidney stone.
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    18                      Opinion of the Court                 21-10471
    And well, my ribs as well. I mean I was bleeding out
    of my mouth. My head.
    Then the IJ asked, “you released a kidney stone while they were
    beating you? I just want to make sure I understand that. And can
    you tell me how that happened?”
    At that point, the interpreter stated, “Your honor, this is the
    interpreter. May the interpreter inquire?” The IJ said “yes.” The
    record next reflects that Serra answered,
    No, no, no, no. This, this was days after when I re-
    leased that kidney stone. You see, I suffer from
    chronic stones or kidney stones. It’s basically, it, your
    kidney releases this through the conduct of your body
    until it reaches the bladder. And I, I was asking them
    to take me to a doctor.
    Then the IJ asked, “did they take you, did the police take you to the
    doctor?” Serra responded, “they didn’t want to take me.”
    The IJ asked, “after you were released after those four days,
    did you seek medical attention at all?” Serra responded,
    Well, on day six, I was still a bit, well, I’m still recu-
    perating in May and on day seven, I will never forget.
    Day seven, May 7th, around 9:00 or 10:00 in the
    morning, I could not urinate. I knew I had that kid-
    ney stone and well, I was drinking water and I could
    not pee. Apparently, the stone had lodged in my ure-
    thra.
    USCA11 Case: 21-10471     Document: 55-1      Date Filed: 02/15/2023    Page: 19 of 22
    21-10471               Opinion of the Court                       19
    The IJ then asked, “[a]gain, I’m going to ask you the same question
    I asked you before. Did you seek medical attention after you were
    released?” Serra responded, “[o]n day seven, on day seven, I went
    to the doctor because my urinary tract was clogged or was backed
    up because of the one-centimeter kidney stone had been lodged in
    my urethra.”
    We conclude that based on this record, there is not “substan-
    tial evidence” to support the IJ’s conclusion that Serra’s statements
    about his kidney stone support an adverse credibility determina-
    tion. See Chen, 
    463 F.3d at 1231
    .
    To begin, the pertinent information about Serra’s beating by
    the Cuban police remained the same from the I-870 interview to
    the hearing testimony. On both occasions Serra reported being hit
    with batons, that his head was put between bars in a jail cell which
    broke his tooth and hurt his mouth/face, and that he was kicked,
    which caused him to pass or release a kidney stone. In Kueviakoe,
    we explained that the “[m]ore significant[]” reason the discrepancy
    was not supported was that the applicant was consistent in re-tell-
    ing the story of being dragged to the vehicle, such that the incon-
    sistency was “wholly immaterial” to his credibility. 
    567 F.3d at 1305
    . So too is the passage of the kidney stone—the timing of the
    release of the stone from Serra’s body is immaterial given the con-
    sistent description of his abuse at the hands of the Cuban police.
    Further, as in Tang, Serra’s explanation of the kidney stone
    incident is more elaborate than the information he initially pro-
    vided because he was asked additional questions about it. In the I-
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    20                      Opinion of the Court                21-10471
    870 interview, Serra was only asked: “How [sic] hurt you second
    time,” “do anything else to you,” and “did you have any injuries?”
    However, when Serra was asked additional questions about the
    kidney stone during the hearing, he provided more detail, such as
    how much time it took for the kidney stone to be released from his
    body and when he sought medical attention.
    Finally, as in Kueviakoe, the record indicates that language
    and interpretation barriers existed in relation to the kidney stone
    issue. The record shows an inconsistent use of the verbs “pass” and
    “release” regarding Serra’s kidney stone. In the I-870 interview,
    Serra reportedly said “I passed a kidney stone.” Then, at the hear-
    ing, Serra instead repeatedly used the term “released.” It is unclear
    whether Serra affords different meaning to these terms (e.g., a kid-
    ney stone passes through one’s body for several days before it is
    ultimately released from the body). In both instances, Serra spoke
    through a Spanish interpreter. And at the pivotal point in the hear-
    ing transcript upon which the IJ determined Serra was inconsistent
    about his kidney stone, the record shows that the interpreter
    needed clarification.
    Considering the totality of the circumstances in light of these
    concerns, we cannot conclude that Serra’s two translated state-
    ments about passing or releasing a kidney stone after he was kicked
    in the ribs by the Cuban police support the adverse credibility de-
    termination reached by the IJ. When an IJ considers inconsisten-
    cies, the REAL ID Act requires “consider[ation of] the circum-
    stances under which the [inconsistent] statements were made.” 8
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    21-10471                Opinion of the Court                       
    21 U.S.C. § 1158
     (b)(1)(B)(iii). The IJ did not do so here. On these
    facts, we are compelled to find that there is not substantial evidence
    to sustain the IJ’s determination.
    B. Geography
    We now turn to the other purported inconsistency—the
    number of countries Serra traveled through before arriving at the
    United States border. In his ruling, the IJ only noted that Serra
    “listed 10 countries” on his I-589 Application but then “testified to
    11 or 12 countries that he passed through” at the hearing. The IJ
    relied in part on this purported inconsistency in making his adverse
    credibility determination. The BIA affirmed this ruling, holding
    that the IJ did not commit clear error in making his findings.
    We disagree with the BIA’s affirmance. The record shows
    that at the hearing, Serra provided an approximation: “[i]t was
    about 11 or 12 countries in total.” The fact that he qualified the
    number indicates that he was estimating. After Serra provided an
    estimate, the IJ let the approximation stand. Given that the stand-
    ard the IJ used to measure Serra’s credibility on this point was one
    of approximation, the substantial evidence standard compels us to
    reverse the IJ’s adverse credibility determination. Serra’s estimate
    of “about 11 or 12,” compared to a list of countries provided on his
    I-589 Application almost two months before his merit hearing is
    simply immaterial to his credibility, and “a reasonable fact finder”
    would not conclude otherwise. See Chen, 
    463 F.3d at
    1230–31 (ci-
    tation omitted). Therefore, as with the IJ’s ruling regarding Serra’s
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    22                     Opinion of the Court                21-10471
    kidney stone, we conclude the IJ committed clear error in reaching
    an adverse credibility determination.
    IV.
    In sum, the IJ perceived two instances of non-responsiveness
    and two discrepancies in the record, resulting in an adverse credi-
    bility determination. The BIA rejected the IJ’s findings of non-re-
    sponsiveness. Thus, the IJ’s adverse credibility determination
    hinged only on two purported inconsistencies in the record. But
    upon consideration of the totality of the circumstances, it is clear
    these inconsistences are unsupported by reasonable, substantial,
    and probative evidence—and thus cannot form the basis for an ad-
    verse credibility determination.
    Therefore, we grant Serra’s petition. We further vacate the
    BIA’s decision and the IJ’s opinion and remand this case to the IJ to
    rule on Serra’s applications for asylum, withholding of removal,
    and relief under CAT in accordance with this opinion. In doing so,
    the IJ must ensure that all relevant factors are considered—and the
    totality of the circumstances ascertained—before reaching a con-
    clusion as to credibility.
    PETITION GRANTED, VACATED and REMANDED.