Lee, Mark A. v. City of Chicago ( 2003 )


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  •                              In the
    United States Court of Appeals
    For the Seventh Circuit
    ____________
    No. 02-1503
    MARK A. LEE,
    Plaintiff-Appellant,
    v.
    CITY OF CHICAGO,
    Defendant-Appellee.
    ____________
    Appeal from the United States District Court
    for the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division.
    No. 01 CV 6751—Charles P. Kocoras, Chief Judge.
    ____________
    ARGUED OCTOBER 28, 2002—DECIDED MAY 22, 2003
    ____________
    Before KANNE, DIANE P. WOOD, and EVANS, Circuit
    Judges.
    KANNE, Circuit Judge. Mark A. Lee was struck by stray
    gunfire while driving his car down a Chicago, Illinois
    street on June 9, 2001. In hopes of tracking down the
    shooter, Chicago police officers promptly impounded Lee’s
    car so that they could later search for, retrieve, and analyze
    any bullets that might have become lodged in it. Ten days
    later on June 19, 2001, the City of Chicago informed Lee
    that they no longer needed his car for evidentiary pur-
    poses. But in a notice entitled, “Vehicle on Hold for Investi-
    gation,” which the City had sent Lee two days after the
    shooting and impoundment, it had informed him that before
    he could retrieve his car, Lee either had to pay all applica-
    2                                              No. 02-1503
    ble towing and storage fees or request a hearing. If he
    didn’t pay or pursue this hearing process within thirty
    days of the date of the car’s impoundment, the City told
    him it could “dispose of ” his car—a euphemism for either
    crushing it or selling it at auction.
    Lee wanted to retrieve his car as soon as possible, but he
    was unable to pay the amount the City demanded. So, he
    got a lawyer, and through him was able to negotiate an
    acceptable payment amount. But when he retrieved his car,
    thirty-one days after it had been impounded, he found that
    the City had spray painted large, bright-red, six-digit
    inventory numbers on its hood and its passenger’s and
    driver’s side panels. The City didn’t pay for this damage,
    nor did it offer to discount or refund the money Lee had
    just paid the City to retrieve his newly redesigned car.
    Lee sued. On August 29, 2001, Lee filed a complaint in
    federal court against the City of Chicago pursuant to
    
    42 U.S.C. § 1983
     alleging that the City had violated his
    rights under the Fourth Amendment to be free from
    unreasonable searches and seizures and under Fourteenth
    Amendment substantive-due-process principles in two
    ways: (1) by requiring him, as the owner of a vehicle
    impounded for evidentiary purposes, to pay towing and
    storage fees, and (2) by spray-painting inventory num-
    bers on his car without consent and without compensation.
    Lee also brought pendant state-law claims for implied
    bailment, trespass, and conversion. Lee filed an amended
    complaint on behalf of two classes of similarly situated
    individuals (those who had to pay fees and those whose
    cars were repainted).
    The City moved to dismiss the amended complaint under
    Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 12(b)(1) and 12(b)(6). The
    district court granted the motion on January 30, 2002,
    holding that Lee lacked standing to challenge his car’s
    spray painting because he presented no evidence that he
    No. 02-1503                                                 3
    maintained a cognizable property interest in the car at
    the time it was painted, and that he could not make out
    a claim under either the Fourth or Fourteenth Amend-
    ment regarding the City’s practice of charging towing and
    storage fees. Lee appeals. We reverse in part, holding
    that Lee has satisfied his burden in establishing facts
    sufficient to withstand a Rule 12(b)(1) motion and to
    confer standing to challenge the City’s spray painting
    of his car, but affirm, on alternate grounds, the district
    court’s dismissal under Rule 12(b)(6) of the claims challeng-
    ing the City’s practice of charging towing and storage fees.
    ANALYSIS
    I.    Rule 12(b)(6)
    We examine a district court’s grant of a Rule 12(b)(6)
    motion de novo. Johnson v. Martin, 
    943 F.2d 15
    , 16 (7th Cir.
    1991). In reviewing the grant of the motion, we view the
    complaint in the light most favorable to the plaintiff, taking
    as true all well-pleaded factual allegations and making
    all possible inferences from those allegations in his or her
    favor. 
    Id.
     A motion to dismiss is to be granted only if “it
    appears beyond doubt that the plaintiff can prove no set
    of facts in support of his claim which would entitle him to
    relief.” Conley v. Gibson, 
    355 U.S. 41
    , 45-46 (1957).
    The City’s Rule 12(b)(6) arguments addressed only the
    City’s practice of charging towing and storage fees to car
    owners whose cars had been impounded for investigatory
    purposes. We therefore address Lee’s two claims under
    the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment challenging this
    practice separately and in turn.
    A. Fourth Amendment
    The parties do not dispute that the initial impoundment
    of Lee’s car for evidentiary purposes was a reasonable
    4                                                    No. 02-1503
    seizure. Nor does Lee claim that the delay between the
    City’s seizure of his car and the City’s completion of its
    search rendered that subsequent search unreasonable.
    Rather, Lee claims that the City’s refusal to return his
    car to him unless he paid the car’s towing and storage fees
    or requested a hearing, when the City had already con-
    cluded its search, constituted an additional “seizure” within
    the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.1 Alternatively,
    he argues that the otherwise reasonable seizure of his
    car became unreasonable when the government’s law-
    enforcement interest in his car ceased but his possessory
    interest in the property survived. In either case, he ar-
    gues the continued possession of the property by the
    government became a meaningful interference with his
    possessory interest and, thus, must be interpreted as a
    Fourth Amendment seizure. Lee then argues that this
    failure-to-return seizure cannot be deemed reasonable
    when its sole purpose was to enforce a demand, under
    threat of loss or destruction of the car, for payment of the
    car’s towing and storage—a cost of law enforcement Lee
    argues should be spread among the public as a whole, who
    all both bear the risk of violent crime and receive the
    benefits of crime solved, rather than assessed to him alone,
    the unfortunate victim of this random occurrence.
    In response, the City argues that when it concluded
    its investigation, the car became available for retrieval. At
    that moment, all “seizure” of the car had in effect ended.
    The subsequent conditioning of the car’s release upon the
    payment of fees or the successful pursuit of a hearing is, in
    the City’s view, a mere dispute about money—that is, how
    much the City was entitled to charge Lee for towing
    1
    Of course, Lee recognizes that the amendment does not apply
    to the City’s actions directly, but rather vis-a-vis its incorpora-
    tion through the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amend-
    ment. See generally Mapp v. Ohio, 
    367 U.S. 643
     (1961).
    No. 02-1503                                                       5
    and storage—and does not raise Fourth Amendment
    concerns. Even if it did, the city argues that its policy of
    apportioning some of its law-enforcement costs of pursu-
    ing criminals to the victims who are most likely to benefit
    from that pursuit is reasonable.
    The Fourth Amendment protects the “right of the people
    to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects,
    against unreasonable searches and seizures . . . .” U.S.
    CONST. amend. IV. In clarifying that the amendment
    addressed property interests in addition to privacy con-
    cerns, the Supreme Court defined the amendment’s use
    of the term “seizure” as “some meaningful interference
    with an individual’s possessory interests in [his] property.”
    Soldal v. Cook County, 
    506 U.S. 56
    , 61 (1992) (citing United
    States v. Jacobsen, 
    466 U.S. 109
    , 113 (1984)). Whether,
    under this definition, a state actor’s refusal to return once
    lawfully obtained property can amount to an unreasonable
    seizure, or, alternatively, transform a seizure from rea-
    sonable to unreasonable, is an issue of first impression in
    this Circuit, and to our knowledge has been addressed by
    only two other circuits—the Sixth, see Fox v. Van Oosterum,
    
    176 F.3d 342
    , 351 (6th Cir. 1999), and the Second, see
    United States v. Jakobetz, 
    955 F.2d 786
    , 802 (2d Cir.
    1992)—both of which held that when the police hold onto
    evidence longer than it is needed for investigatory pur-
    poses, the owner has no recourse under the Fourth Amend-
    ment.2
    2
    The Tenth Circuit has noted that the continued deprivation
    of property may raise statutory or constitutional violations. Davis
    v. Gracey, 
    111 F.3d 1472
    , 1477 (10th Cir. 1997). It found support
    for potential statutory violations in provisions such as Federal
    Rule of Criminal Procedure 41(e), which allows a criminal
    defendant aggrieved by an unlawful search, seizure, or depriva-
    tion of property to petition for its suppression or return. 
    Id.
     And
    (continued...)
    6                                                   No. 02-1503
    The Second Circuit reached this position with rather
    limited discussion in Jakobetz. 
    955 F.2d at 802
    . In that
    case, the prosecution sought to introduce photographic
    evidence that the New York City police department had
    retained from an earlier investigation involving unrelated
    charges against Jakobetz. After those initial, unrelated
    charges had been dropped, New York law directed the police
    to return the photos, which the police failed to do. On
    that basis, Jakobetz argued that the failure to return the
    photos constituted an unreasonable seizure and that the
    prosecution should therefore be barred from introducing the
    photos as evidence against him in the subsequent pro-
    ceeding. The Second Circuit disagreed. It didn’t “think
    that the ‘seizure’ alleged [was] one that deserve[d] the
    special protections provided by the fourth amendment,”
    noting there was no authority for the contrary position. 
    Id.
    At most, the court thought Jakobetz might be able to
    establish a violation of a statutory right. 
    Id.
     The court
    went on to note that even if they were to find an unrea-
    sonable seizure, Jakobetz had failed to allege any wilful
    intent on the part of the police to retain the property
    unlawfully. And since the exclusionary rule seeks only to
    deter police misconduct, they could see no purpose in
    applying the rule. 
    Id.
    With more discussion than the Second Circuit’s resolu-
    tion of the issue in Jakobetz, a split panel of the Sixth
    2
    (...continued)
    the court recognized a potential First Amendment challenge
    should the state not conduct an adversarial proceeding within
    a certain time frame to determine whether the material was, in
    fact, obscene. 
    Id.
     (citing In re Search of Kitty’s East, 
    905 F.2d 1367
    , 1371, 1375 (10th Cir. 1990) (discussing the potential for
    First Amendment violations)). The court did not reach the issue
    of whether a constitutional challenge could arise under the Fourth
    Amendment. 
    Id.
    No. 02-1503                                                 7
    Circuit in Fox determined that a failure to return property
    would not constitute a Fourth Amendment seizure. Fox, 
    176 F.3d at 349-50
    . In the majority’s view, the amendment
    protected only an individual’s interest in retaining prop-
    erty against illegal government intrusion, rather than an
    interest in regaining possession of that property. 
    Id. at 350
    .
    To reach this conclusion, the court largely relied upon a
    remark made by Justice Stevens in his concurrence in
    Texas v. Brown, a case in which a plurality of the Justices
    held that a warrantless seizure of a balloon from inside
    a vehicle was justified, even though its contents were
    not visible to the officer, where incriminating evidence
    sufficient to establish probable cause that the balloon
    contained contraband came into the plain view of an officer
    during the course of an investigatory stop. 
    460 U.S. 730
    ,
    744 (1983) (plurality opinion). Here is what Justice
    Stevens said there: “The [Fourth] Amendment protects two
    different interests of the citizen—the interest in retaining
    possession of property and the interest in maintaining
    personal privacy.” 
    Id. at 747
     (Stevens, J., concurring) (em-
    phasis added). Justice Stevens’s point was that these two
    interests, possession and privacy, were separate, distinct,
    and protected by the amendment individually. In his
    view, circumstances could arise to diminish an individual’s
    possessory interest in a closed container discovered in
    “plain view” during the course of an investigatory stop,
    justifying a warrantless seizure of the property to ensure
    against its loss or destruction, but could nevertheless
    leave the individual’s privacy interest in the contents of
    that container undisturbed, therefore mandating that a
    warrant be obtained before opening that container and
    searching it. 
    Id. at 749-50
    . This distinction between prop-
    erty and privacy interests, the Sixth Circuit in Fox noted,
    was later recognized by a majority of the Supreme Court
    in Soldal. Fox, 
    176 F.3d at
    350 (citing Soldal, 
    506 U.S. at 62-63
     (recognizing that the Fourth Amendment “protects
    property as well as privacy”)). And since the Soldal majority
    8                                                 No. 02-1503
    had cited Justice Stevens’s Brown concurrence, the Fox
    court implied that the Court also had Justice Stevens’s
    particular phrasing of that property interest in mind
    when defining the term “seizure” as a “meaningful interfer-
    ence with a possessory interest.” Id. at 351.
    Assigning precedential value to this phrasing is problem-
    atic. As an initial matter, there is little in Justice Stevens’s
    concurring opinion in Brown to suggest that he had a
    temporal restriction in mind when he described the prop-
    erty interest. Accord California v. Hodari D., 
    499 U.S. 621
    , 632-34 (1991) (Stevens, J., dissenting) (arguing against
    strict literal construction of the term “seizure”). To the
    contrary, the analysis is consistent with the notion that
    an individual’s Fourth Amendment rights do not dis-
    sipate upon the loss of physical possession—at the very
    least, Justice Stevens believed an individual’s privacy
    interests in their property may remain intact despite
    dispossession. And although the Soldal court may have
    cited Justice Stevens’s Brown concurrence, as well as his
    majority opinion in United States v. Jacobsen, 
    466 U.S. 109
    ,
    113 (1984), for the proposition that the amendment serves
    to protect dual interests of privacy and possession, noth-
    ing in that opinion suggests that the adoption of the
    distinction subsumed as well the conception of that
    possessory interest as one of retention.
    But this is not to suggest that there aren’t other justifica-
    tions for reaching the same conclusion as the Fox and
    Jakobetz courts. First, we cannot overlook the text of the
    amendment, which states that it protects the right “to be
    secure” in one’s home, person, or effects. That language
    suggests a state of being that is protected against intru-
    sion by unlawful government action. It then could be ar-
    gued that once that state has been disturbed by an act of
    dispossession, the individual is no longer secure in his
    possessory interest within the meaning of the amendment.
    Moreover, at the time of the amendment’s drafting, the
    No. 02-1503                                                       9
    word “seizure” was defined as a temporally limited act, one
    involving the “confiscation or forcible taking possession (of
    land or goods); a sudden and forcible taking hold.” OXFORD
    ENGLISH DICTIONARY (2d ed. 1989) (quoting 10th Rep. Hist.
    MSS. Comm. App. v. 516 (1701) (“His Majestie Attornie-
    Generall . . . moved . . . for a seizure of the premises.”), and
    BURKE CORR. IV 143 (1793) (“The seizure of the estates
    of the church.”)); see also California v. Hodari D., 
    499 U.S. 621
    , 624 (1991) (“From the time of the founding to the
    present, the word ‘seizure’ has meant a ‘taking posses-
    sion.’ ” (quotations omitted)); Thompson v. Whitman, 85 U.S.
    (18 Wall.) 457, 471 (1873) (“A seizure is a single act, and
    not a continuous fact.”). Thus, Justice Stevens’s descrip-
    tion—even if lacking in independent precedential value—is
    consistent with this literal reading.
    Besides the textualist argument, there is precedent in
    this Circuit that requires us to restrict Fourth Amend-
    ment seizures temporally. In Wilkins v. May, we rejected
    the idea that a Fourth Amendment seizure can continue
    beyond the point of arrest to govern excessive-force
    claims brought by pretrial detainees.3 
    872 F.2d 190
    , 194
    (7th Cir. 1989); see also Reed v. City of Chicago, 
    77 F.3d 1049
    , 1052 n.3 (7th Cir. 1996) (reaffirming Wilkins on this
    point and rejecting the notion that Justice Ginsburg’s
    endorsement of the continuing-seizure concept in Albright
    v. Oliver, 
    510 U.S. 266
    , 276-80 (1994) (Ginsburg, J., concur-
    3
    In rejecting this concept of a “continuing seizure,” we are joined
    by the Fourth, Fifth, and Eleventh Circuits. See, e.g., Riley v.
    Dorton, 
    115 F.3d 1159
    , 1163 (4th Cir. 1997) (citing Brothers v.
    Klevenhagen, 
    28 F.3d 452
    , 456 (5th Cir. 1994), and Cottrell v.
    Caldwell, 
    85 F.3d 1480
    , 1490 (11th Cir. 1996)). The Fifth Circuit
    has recently rejected the argument advanced by pretrial detainees
    that being charged fees in conjunction with bail release consti-
    tutes an unreasonable seizure. Broussard v. Parish of Orleans,
    
    318 F.3d 644
    , 662 (5th Cir. 2003).
    10                                                   No. 02-1503
    ring), was controlling precedent).4 Two practical reasons led
    us to reject the notion of a “continuing seizure.” First, the
    “considerations that have been used to give meaning to the
    key substantive term in the amendment—‘unreasonable’—
    are largely inapplicable once the arrest has taken place
    and the arrested person has been placed securely in cus-
    tody.” Wilkins, 
    872 F.2d at 193
    . We noted that the usual
    issue for Fourth Amendment cases in general was wheth-
    er probable cause existed, and in a typical Fourth Amend-
    ment excessive-force case it was the related issue of
    “whether the force used to seize the suspect was exces-
    sive in relation to the danger he posed.” 
    Id.
     (citations
    omitted). Neither of these issues would be presented when
    a suspect was already lawfully in custody. 
    Id.
     As such, the
    “text, history, and judicial interpretations” of the Fourth
    Amendment would prove unhelpful in resolving the cases.
    
    Id. at 194
    .
    Second, allowing the analysis to proceed outside this
    traditional context, under the amendment’s general reason-
    4
    In Newsome v. McCabe, we rejected the tripartite formula for
    a constitutional tort of malicious prosecution—that is, analyzing
    the claim first as one for unlawful arrest under the Fourth
    Amendment; then, as pretrial detainees, under substantive due
    process; and, after trial, under the Eighth Amendment protections
    against cruel and unusual punishment—that was set forth as
    dicta in Wilkins and Reed, by interpreting Albright, in accord with
    its narrowest ground of decision, to bar any constitutional theory
    of malicious prosecution at all when adequate state-law remedies
    exist. Newsome v. McCabe, 
    256 F.3d 747
    , 750-51 (7th Cir. 2000).
    Nothing in that decision, however, disturbs the effective holding
    of Wilkins that Fourth Amendment protections do not extend
    beyond the point of arrest. In fact, consistent with Reed, our
    decision in Newsome recognizes that Justice Ginsburg’s Albright
    “continuing seizure” concurrence is not controlling law. 
    Id. at 751
    (finding Albright’s narrowest ground of decision and effective
    holding to be Justices Kennedy’s and Thomas’s concurring
    opinion).
    No. 02-1503                                               11
    ableness requirement, would lead to an “unwarranted
    expansion of constitutional law.” 
    Id.
     We noted, for example,
    that if an officer were to stick his tongue out at a suspect
    during a custodial interrogation, his behavior would
    certainly be considered unreasonable.
    [W]ould it therefore make the “continuing seizure” . . .
    violative of the Fourth Amendment? Surely not. But
    why not? There are no obvious limiting principles
    within the amendment itself. The problem is that the
    concept of continuing seizure attenuated the ele-
    ment that makes police conduct in the arrest situa-
    tion problematic: the police are taking away a per-
    son’s liberty. Custodial interrogation does not curtail
    a person’s freedom of action; it presupposes that he
    has already lost that freedom—for by definition he is
    already in custody.
    
    Id.
     Given this, we found it unwise to extend the scope of
    the amendment.
    Against our reaching an analogous conclusion here, Lee
    argues that the Supreme Court’s holding in United States
    v. Place broadly proposes that upon changed circum-
    stances over time, a seizure of property that began as
    reasonable can become unreasonable. 
    462 U.S. 696
     (1983).
    But such an extension of Place betrays the narrow con-
    fines of its holding, which is limited to brief investigative
    detentions of property on less than probable cause. Place
    held that an officer who can articulate a reasonable suspi-
    cion that property may be involved in a crime may act
    to detain that property in order to conduct further investi-
    gation. 
    Id. at 706
     (“In sum, we conclude that when an
    officer’s observations lead him reasonably to believe that
    a traveler is carrying luggage that contains narcotics, the
    principles of Terry [v. Ohio, 
    392 U.S. 1
     (1968)] and its
    progeny would permit the officer to detain the luggage
    briefly to investigate the circumstances that aroused his
    12                                               No. 02-1503
    suspicion, provided that the investigative detention is
    properly limited in scope.”) After the expiration of a rea-
    sonable amount of time for the police to conclude whether
    their suspicions were justified, however, that detention
    begins to impede significantly upon the individual’s pos-
    sessory interest and, as such, becomes a full-blown seizure.
    See Farm Labor Organizing Comm. v. Ohio State Highway
    Patrol, 
    308 F.3d 523
    , 548 (6th Cir. 2002). If at that mo-
    ment, the police have not established probable cause, then
    they cannot justify the property’s seizure. In short, Place
    and its progeny deal only with the transformation of a
    momentary, investigative detention into a seizure. See Fox,
    
    176 F.3d at
    351 n.6 (“The Place Court provided a frame-
    work for analyzing when law enforcement agents may hold
    someone’s property for a very short time on less than
    probable cause to pursue a limited course of investigation.”).
    As such, Place is ultimately concerned only with the initial
    loss of that possessory interest and whether the existence
    of probable cause renders that loss reasonable. It has no
    application after probable cause to seize has been estab-
    lished.
    Similarly, other Fourth Amendment cases, such as
    those which mandate that property detained during a
    consensual search be returned to the owner upon the
    withdrawal of consent, are concerned ultimately with the
    relation between probable cause and a loss of a possessory
    interest. Generally speaking, a person who has given valid
    consent to a seizure may withdraw that consent by re-
    questing the article’s return. Florida v. Jimeno, 
    500 U.S. 248
    , 252 (1991) (“A suspect may of course delimit as he
    chooses the scope of the search to which he consents.”);
    United States v. Jachimko, 
    19 F.3d 296
    , 299 (7th Cir. 1994)
    (stating general principle that consent may be withdrawn);
    Richard A. Vaughn, DDS, P.C. v. Baldwin, 
    950 F.2d 331
    (6th Cir. 1991) (where plaintiff gave his business records
    to the IRS so that they could be copied but later made a
    No. 02-1503                                                 13
    formal demand for their return, “the government had no
    right to possession after consent was withdrawn”). It could
    be argued from these cases that continuing to retain
    property in light of an owner’s demand for its return
    constitutes an unreasonable seizure in all circumstances.
    But like Place, these cases cannot be read so broadly.
    Most courts treat consent as an exception to the amend-
    ment’s warrant requirement, see Fox, 
    176 F.3d at
    357 n.4
    (discussing consent as “an exception to the Fourth Amend-
    ment’s warrant requirement in the same way as an inven-
    tory search is”); see also United States v. Basinski, 
    226 F.3d 829
    , 834 (7th Cir. 2000) (same), and thus recognize that
    the owner’s revocation and request for return “need not
    be complied with if there is then probable cause to retain
    [the property] as evidence.” 3 WAYNE R. LA FAVE, SEARCH
    & SEIZURE § 8.1(c) (3d ed. 1996) (citing examples); see also
    United States v. Mitchell, 
    82 F.3d 146
    , 151 (7th Cir. 1996).
    It follows that, like Place, these cases address the cir-
    cumstances under which police may initially detain per-
    sonal property on less than probable cause—either upon
    reasonable suspicion of criminal activity or by virtue of
    the owner’s consent. But when either of these two precon-
    ditions expire, a limited detention becomes a full-blown
    seizure, which is either justified by probable cause or is
    unreasonable.
    Attempting to extend the Fourth Amendment through
    Place or these consent cases to address the situation be-
    fore us would implicate the same practical concerns we
    found unsettling in Wilkins. In short, the core of past
    Fourth Amendment jurisprudence would no longer be
    relevant to resolve the issues presented. See Riley, 
    115 F.3d at
    1162-63 (citing “[d]ecades of Fourth Amendment prece-
    dent [that has] focused on the initial deprivation of liberty”;
    for example, “what constitutes an arrest; what constitutes
    probable cause to make an arrest; when probable cause
    must be found by a neutral magistrate; which officials
    14                                               No. 02-1503
    may issue a warrant; what type of information is required
    to support a valid warrant; and what force may be used
    during an arrest.” (citations omitted)). Admittedly, probable
    cause, while unquestionably existent at the moment of
    the car’s impoundment, is no longer offered as an interest
    to justify the City’s refusal to return Lee’s car uncondi-
    tionally. In fact, the government interests advanced here
    aren’t really concerned with law-enforcement goals at all;
    they are more appropriately characterized as fiscal. And
    they are strikingly similar to those which we have al-
    ready considered legitimate and rational in another consti-
    tutional context. Miller v. City of Chicago, 
    774 F.2d 188
    ,
    195-96 (7th Cir. 1985) (rejecting plaintiff’s substantive-due-
    process challenge to the city’s practice of conditioning
    the release of stolen cars that had been recovered and
    impounded by police upon the owner’s payment of towing
    and storage fees because it was reasonable for the City to
    apportion particularized law-enforcement costs to those
    individuals who receive the most direct and substantial
    benefit from that law-enforcement action). Evaluating
    the legitimacy of these fiscal interests and weighing them
    against an individual’s competing interest in regaining
    his property is not, and never has been, a concern of the
    Fourth Amendment. To paraphrase Wilkins, a government’s
    decision regarding how and when to return once lawfully
    obtained property “raises different issues, which the text,
    history, and judicial interpretations of the Fourth Amend-
    ment do not illuminate.” Wilkins, 
    872 F.2d at 194
    .
    At bottom, Lee’s complaint against the charging of tow-
    ing and storage fees concerns the fairness and integrity
    of the criminal-justice process, and does not seek to con-
    strain unlawful intrusions into the constitutionally pro-
    tected areas of the Fourth Amendment. See United States
    v. Wilson, 
    540 F.2d 1100
    , 1103 (D.C. Cir. 1976) (“[I]t is
    fundamental to the integrity of the criminal justice process
    that property involved in the proceeding against which
    No. 02-1503                                                15
    no Government claim lies, be returned promptly to its
    rightful owner.”). It is axiomatic that property once seized,
    but no longer needed, should at some point be returned
    to its rightful owner. 
    Id.
     Equitable principles would dic-
    tate as much. 
    Id. at 1103-04
     (“[The] district court . . . has
    both the [equitable] jurisdiction and the duty to return
    the contested property here regardless and independently
    of the validity or invalidity of the underlying search and
    seizure”); see also United States v. Martinson, 
    809 F.2d 1364
    , 1369-70 (9th Cir. 1987) (entertaining equitable
    jurisdiction over motions to return property seized when
    no criminal proceedings are pending against the movant
    and collecting cases regarding the same); Illinois v.
    Hermann, 
    501 N.E.2d 842
    , 845-47 (Ill. App. Ct. 1986)
    (entertaining defendants’ motion for return of property
    seized under Illinois Criminal Code when all criminal
    proceedings against defendants had been concluded). What
    is more, the government should not, by virtue of its au-
    thority to seize, effect de facto forfeitures of property
    by retaining items indefinitely. See United States v. Pre-
    mises Known As 608 Taylor Ave., 
    584 F.2d 1297
    , 1302 (3d
    Cir. 1978).5 But we know that due-process guarantees
    would prevent this, by requiring the government to bring
    forfeiture proceedings against the seized property and
    to bring them without unreasonable delay. See 
    id. at 1302
    ; cf. In re Search of Kitty’s East, 
    905 F.2d 1367
    , 1371,
    1375 (10th Cir. 1990) (discussing potential First Amend-
    ment limitations to continuing to hold property alleged
    to be obscene). And in conducting a due-process analysis
    to decide how, when, and under what terms the property
    may be returned, the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments’
    texts, histories, and judicial interpretations can better aid
    5
    Other courts have likened continued retention of evidence as
    a taking without just compensation. Lowther v. United States,
    
    480 F.2d 1031
    , 1033-34 (10th Cir. 1973). Lee makes no such
    argument before this Court.
    16                                             No. 02-1503
    a court in balancing the competing interests at stake. See,
    e.g., Miller, 
    774 F.2d at 195-96
    ; Stypmann v. City & County
    of San Francisco, 
    557 F.2d 1338
    , 1342-43 (9th Cir. 1977)
    (finding city’s practice of establishing possessory lien for
    towing and storage fees without opportunity for hearing
    deprived owners of due process). Indeed, Lee raises a
    substantive-due-process challenge here, and we address it
    below. For all the reasons discussed, we believe this is the
    better approach.
    In sum, we conclude, as did the Sixth Circuit in Fox, that
    Soldal’s “meaningful interference with a possessory inter-
    est” definition is limited to an individual’s interest in
    retaining his property. Once an individual has been mean-
    ingfully dispossessed, the seizure of the property is com-
    plete, and once justified by probable cause, that seizure
    is reasonable. The amendment then cannot be invoked
    by the dispossessed owner to regain his property. There-
    fore, Lee’s car was seized when it was impounded. The
    car’s subsequent search was completed after ten days.
    Conditioning the car’s release upon payment of towing
    and storage fees after the search was completed neither
    continued the initial seizure nor began another.
    B. Substantive Due Process
    Lee next argues that the City’s procedure violated his
    substantive-due-process rights under the Fourteenth
    Amendment; he does not raise a procedural-due-process
    challenge. Although Lee has now identified the proper
    constitutional theory implicated by the City’s practice,
    we ultimately hold that he cannot make out a claim for
    recovery under it.
    Both the Supreme Court and this Court have “emphasized
    how limited the scope of the substantive due process
    doctrine is.” Dunn v. Fairfield Cmty. High Sch. Dist.
    No. 225, 
    158 F.3d 962
    , 965 (7th Cir. 1998) (citing Washing-
    ton v. Glucksberg, 
    521 U.S. 702
     (1997)). Accordingly,
    No. 02-1503                                               17
    substantive due process is not “a blanket protection against
    unjustifiable interferences with property.” Schroeder v.
    City of Chicago, 
    927 F.2d 957
    , 961 (7th Cir. 1991). Unless
    a governmental practice encroaches on a fundamental
    right, substantive due process requires only that the
    practice be rationally related to a legitimate government
    interest, or alternatively phrased, that the practice be
    neither arbitrary nor irrational. See Glucksberg, 
    521 U.S. at 728
    . And when a substantive-due-process challenge
    involves only the deprivation of a property interest, a
    plaintiff must show “either the inadequacy of state law
    remedies or an independent constitutional violation” before
    the court will even engage in this deferential rational-
    basis review. Doherty v. City of Chicago, 
    75 F.3d 318
    , 323-
    26 (7th Cir. 1996); see also Wudtke v. Davel, 
    128 F.3d 1057
    ,
    1062 (7th Cir. 1997) (“[I]n cases where the plaintiff com-
    plains that he has been unreasonably deprived of a state-
    created property interest, without alleging a violation of
    some other substantive constitutional right or that avail-
    able state remedies are inadequate, the plaintiff has not
    stated a substantive due process claim.” (quotations
    omitted)).
    Because Lee’s substantive-due-process claim does not
    implicate a fundamental right and involves only the
    deprivation of a property interest, he must show as
    an initial matter either that state-law remedies are in-
    adequate or that an independent constitutional right has
    been violated. Doherty, 
    75 F.3d at 325-26
    . Indeed, we
    recently rejected similar substantive-due-process claims
    by vehicle owners who alleged that the City had wrong-
    fully held their vehicles at an auto pound and had damaged
    the vehicles during the towing and storage process be-
    cause the plaintiffs failed to make either of these requisite
    showings. Gable v. City of Chicago, 
    296 F.3d 531
    , 541 (7th
    Cir. 2002); see also Holstein v. City of Chicago, 
    29 F.3d 1145
    , 1149 (7th Cir. 1994) (dismissing plaintiff’s sub-
    stantive-due-process challenge to city’s post-tow administra-
    18                                                    No. 02-1503
    tive proceedings because “in order to properly allege a
    violation of substantive due process, the plaintiff must
    at least show ‘either a separate constitutional violation
    or the inadequacy of state law remedies.’ ”). Like the
    plaintiffs in Gable, Lee cannot make either showing here.
    As discussed above, he cannot state a claim under the
    Fourth Amendment. And far from alleging the inadequacy
    of state-law remedies, Lee has asserted pendant state-
    law claims for bailment, trespass, and wrongful conver-
    sion. See also Gable, 
    296 F.3d at 540
     (discussing available
    state-law remedies).6 Consequently, Lee has not made a
    substantive-due-process claim.
    6
    One argument Lee could have raised in an attempt to preserve
    his substantive-due-process claim but did not, probably because
    it is counterintuitive to his interests, is that charging towing and
    storage fees for investigative impoundments was authorized by
    state statute. The City, in fact, asserts this statutory authority,
    citing section 4-203 of the Illinois Motor Vehicle Code, which
    states “[w]hen a vehicle removal from either public or private
    property is authorized by a law enforcement agency, the owner
    of the vehicle shall be responsible for all towing and storage fees.”
    625 ILL. COMP. STAT. 5/4-203 (2002). Given the self-evident
    knowledge that the police may “conduct otherwise permissible
    searches [and seizures] for the purpose of obtaining evidence,” cf.
    Warden v. Hayden, 
    387 U.S. 294
    , 306 (1967), the argument would
    proceed that the unchallenged seizure of Lee’s car was an “autho-
    rized” vehicle removal within the statute’s plain meaning. But cf.
    Illinois v. Searle, 
    427 N.E.2d 65
    , 68 (1981) (finding section 4-207
    inapplicable to release of motorcycle seized and detained be-
    cause it lacked an identifiable manufacturer’s identification as
    required by law). If this argument is correct, and we do not hold
    here that it is, then it would appear that this statutory author-
    ity would render any state common-law remedies unavailable.
    Without the benefit of argument or brief, however, we decline
    to resolve the issue here. But if Lee were to discover his state
    common-law claims barred by statute, our holding here would
    not bar him from raising a substantive-due-process challenge at
    that time.
    No. 02-1503                                               19
    II. Rule 12(b)(1)
    Having determined that Lee has failed to state a claim
    for which relief can be granted under § 1983 by alleging
    that the City’s towing and storage fees violated his con-
    stitutional rights, we next evaluate whether he has sat-
    isfied his burden to establish standing to contest the
    constitutionality of the City’s spray painting of his car. We
    review a district court’s decision to grant or deny a Rule
    12(b)(1) motion to dismiss for lack of standing de novo.
    Doe v. County of Montgomery, Ill., 
    41 F.3d 1156
    , 1158
    (7th Cir. 1994).
    In ruling on a motion to dismiss for want of standing,
    the district court must accept as true all material allega-
    tions of the complaint, drawing all reasonable inferences
    therefrom in the plaintiff’s favor. Retired Chicago Police
    Assoc. v. City of Chicago, 
    76 F.3d 856
    , 862 (7th Cir. 1996).
    The plaintiff, as the party invoking federal jurisdiction,
    bears the burden of establishing the required elements
    of standing. 
    Id.
     (citing Lujan v. Defenders of Wildlife, 
    504 U.S. 555
    , 561 (1992)). Those elements are (i) an injury
    in fact, which is an invasion of a legally protected inter-
    est that is concrete and particularized and, thus, actual
    or imminent, not conjectural or hypothetical; (ii) a causal
    relationship between the injury and the challenged con-
    duct, such that the injury can be fairly traced to the
    challenged action of the defendant; and (iii) a likelihood
    that the injury will be redressed by a favorable decision.
    See Lujan, 
    504 U.S. at 560-61
    . If standing is challenged
    as a factual matter, the plaintiff must come forward
    with “competent proof ”—that is a showing by a preponder-
    ance of the evidence—that standing exists. Retired Chi-
    cago Police Assoc., 
    76 F.3d at 862
    .
    The City here argues, and the district court agreed, that
    it is challenging Lee’s standing as a factual matter, which
    triggered Lee’s burden to come forward with competent
    20                                               No. 02-1503
    proof of standing. The City isn’t challenging whether
    Lee owned the car before it was towed. He did. Or, for
    that matter, the City isn’t challenging whether the car
    is once again Lee’s. It is. But the City does challenge
    whether Lee had a property interest in the car at the
    time it was spray painted. According to the City, Lee’s
    car was no longer his after the expiration of thirty
    days from its impoundment. If Lee’s property interest in
    the car divested after thirty days, the argument goes,
    the City had the authority to crush it, sell it at auction,
    or otherwise dispose of it as the City saw fit. And if the
    City decided to spray paint inventory numbers on the
    car upon the thirty-first day to ensure that it would later
    dispose of the proper car, so be it—it could do with “its” car
    as it pleased. Since Lee never alleged, let alone intro-
    duced any evidence, that the City spray painted the car
    before the thirty-first day, the argument concludes that
    he has failed in his burden to prove standing with compe-
    tent evidence.
    We are not persuaded. We do not believe that the City
    has raised a factual challenge, and, as such, conclude
    that Lee’s only burden was to plead sufficient facts to
    confer standing, which he did. The City’s attempt to raise
    a factual challenge is premised on an erroneous legal
    conclusion; namely, that Lee lost all property interest in
    his car at the end of thirty days.
    Although property rights are protected by the U.S.
    Constitution, they are created by applicable state and
    local law. See, e.g., Bd. of Regents of State Colleges v. Roth,
    
    408 U.S. 564
    , 577 (1972). Specifically, property rights
    “are created and their dimensions are defined by existing
    rules or understandings that stem from an independent
    source such as state law—rules or understandings that
    secure certain benefits and that support claims of entitle-
    ment to those benefits.” 
    Id.
     Accord Ulichny v. Merton Cmty.
    Sch. District, 
    249 F.3d 686
    , 700 (7th Cir. 2001). So, we turn
    No. 02-1503                                                 21
    to those provisions of Illinois law that the City advances
    in support of its argument.
    The City relies upon the Illinois Motor Vehicle Code
    for its authority to dispose of a car as it wishes after it
    has held the car for thirty days. Specifically, it cites section
    4-208(a):
    Disposal of unclaimed vehicles.
    (a) . . . whenever an abandoned, lost, stolen or
    unclaimed vehicle, . . . remains unclaimed by the
    registered owner, lienholder or other legally enti-
    tled person for a period of 15 days after notice has
    been given under Sections 4-205 and 4-206 of this
    Code, the vehicle shall be disposed [as provided
    by law.]
    625 ILL. COMP. STAT. 5/4-208(a) (2002). Lee argues that
    the provision is inapplicable—and that the City had no
    authority at all to dispose of his car—because the stat-
    ute refers only to “abandoned, lost, stolen, or unclaimed
    vehicles.” He argues that a car seized for evidentiary
    purposes is not abandoned, lost, or stolen and that the
    car was not “unclaimed” within the meaning of the stat-
    ute because Lee had repeatedly attempted to retrieve his
    car once the City had completed its search.
    We agree with Lee’s position. First, the City assumes
    that until it released the car to Lee upon payment of a
    portion of the towing fees or his successful pursuit of a
    hearing, Lee’s car remained “unclaimed” within the mean-
    ing of section 4-208, triggering the City’s right to dispose
    of the car and, by implication, the loss of Lee’s property
    interest. Contrary to the City’s assumption, reclamation
    does not depend upon release. The two are treated as
    separate and distinct actions under the Act.
    Under section 4-207(a), an owner may reclaim his vehicle
    “[a]ny time before [it] is sold at public sale or disposed of
    22                                               No. 02-1503
    as provided in Section 4-208 . . . by presenting to the
    law enforcement agency having custody of the vehicle
    proof of ownership or proof of the right to possession of
    the vehicle.” 625 ILL. COMP. STAT. 5/4-207(a) (2003). Noth-
    ing in that subsection conditions reclamation upon the
    payment of towing and storage fees. Rather it is only the
    release of an owner’s car that is conditioned upon payment
    of those fees. Section 4-207(b) states that “[n]o vehicle shall
    be released to the owner, lienholder, or other person under
    this section until all towing, storage, and processing charges
    have been paid.” 
    Id.
     5/4-207(b).
    The clear import of this distinction in the statutory
    language is that an owner may alleviate the threat of loss
    or destruction of his car by properly asserting entitlement
    to the vehicle even if he lacks the funds to arrange for the
    car’s immediate release. By alleging that he attempted
    repeatedly to retrieve his car by asserting his right to
    possession, Lee has pled sufficient facts to give rise to the
    inference that he had reclaimed his vehicle within the
    meaning of the Code. By definition, after he “reclaimed” his
    vehicle, it was no longer “unclaimed” within the meaning
    of section 4-208, and since it is agreed that Lee’s car was
    not abandoned, lost, or stolen, the City could no longer
    pursue disposal. Although the City characterizes its re-
    fusal to dispose of Lee’s car once the notice period had
    expired as an act of administrative grace, that disposal
    proceedings should have halted was in fact mandated by
    statute.
    Second, even if we were to ignore the statutory distinc-
    tion between reclamation and release, section 4-207 makes
    clear that the owner of the car may reclaim the car at
    “any time before” it is sold at auction or disposed. 
    Id.
     5/4-
    207(a) (emphasis added). This means that regardless of
    the expiration of the notice period triggering the City’s
    ability or authority to sell or dispose the car, the car owner
    still possesses some residual property interest that can be
    No. 02-1503                                                    23
    invoked until the moment of actual sale or disposal. In
    other words, at most a car owner’s property right be-
    comes defeasible upon the expiration of the notice period.
    It does not dissipate altogether. And that defeasible
    property interest expires only upon the completion of a
    sale or disposal.7
    Accordingly, Lee maintained a cognizable property
    interest in his vehicle throughout the City’s possession of
    it. Since the City’s position was based on an erroneous
    legal conclusion, it has raised no factual challenge, and
    Lee has pleaded sufficient facts to confer standing to
    challenge the City’s spray painting of his car.
    The City argues in its brief that should we reach this
    conclusion, we should proceed to evaluate its argument
    that Lee fails to state a claim for relief under § 1983 to
    challenge the City’s spray painting of his vehicle. Before
    the district court, the City had alternately moved under
    Rule 12(b)(6) to dismiss Lee’s spray-painting claim on the
    grounds that he failed to allege municipal liability, but
    the district court did not reach the issue, having granted
    the City’s Rule 12(b)(1) motion to dismiss for lack of
    standing. The City argues that on remand to the district
    court, they would once again move to dismiss Lee’s spray-
    painting claim under Rule 12(b)(6), and that the issue
    would inevitably wind up before us, where our review would
    7
    Alternatively, section 4-207(a) can be read to grant the owner
    a statutory right to redemption of the vehicle that extends until
    the completion of the auction sale or other disposal in accordance
    with Illinois law. Cf. Colon v. Option One Mortgage Corp., 
    319 F.3d 912
    , 919-20 (7th Cir. 2003) (discussing the equitable and
    statutory redemption rights granted to homeowners and mortgag-
    ors under Illinois law). A redemption right is a “significant
    property interest.” See In re Brown, 
    126 B.R. 767
    , 770 (Bank. N.D.
    Ill. 1991); see also In re Cook County Treasurer, 
    706 N.E.2d 465
    ,
    468 (Ill. 1998).
    24                                              No. 02-1503
    proceed de novo. Johnson v. Martin, 
    943 F.2d 15
    , 16 (7th
    Cir. 1991). In the interests of judicial economy, the City
    asserts, we should endeavor to forgo this subsequent ap-
    peal and reach their arguments that Lee’s spray-painting
    claim fails to state a claim under the Fourth or Fourteenth
    Amendments.
    Notwithstanding the fact that the City’s argument
    has some weight—it is likely, given our evaluation of his
    claim against the City’s towing practices, that Lee will
    be unable to show that his car’s spray painting consti-
    tuted a Fourth Amendment violation or that state-law
    remedies are inadequate—we are foreclosed from resolving
    the issue here. First, this Court has unequivocally stated,
    that without cross-appeal, an appellee may not “attack
    the decree with a view to either enlarging his own rights
    thereunder or of lessening the rights of his adversary,
    whether what he seeks is to correct an error or to supple-
    ment the decree with respect to a matter not dealt with
    below.” United States ex rel. Stachulak v. Coughlin, 
    520 F.2d 931
    , 937 (7th Cir. 1975) (quoting United States v. Am.
    Ry. Express Co., 
    265 U.S. 425
    , 435 (1924)). A ruling grant-
    ing a motion to dismiss for lack of subject matter jurisdic-
    tion is not on the merits, see Winslow v. Walters, 
    815 F.2d 1114
    , 1116 (7th Cir. 1987), whereas a dismissal under Rule
    12(b)(6) would be. Accordingly, the City seeks to enlarge its
    rights and supplement the district court’s decree with a
    ruling on the merits that was not reached below. It cannot
    do this without filing a cross-appeal.
    Second, although the City did advance a Rule 12(b)(6)
    argument in front of the district court, that argument
    was only that Lee had failed to allege facts giving rise
    to municipal liability under the Monell standard. See
    Monell v. Dept. of Social Servs., 
    436 U.S. 658
    , 694 (1978).
    Here, the City advances arguments that the car’s spray
    painting was not a Fourth Amendment seizure and that
    Lee has failed to allege that available state-law remedies
    No. 02-1503                                              25
    are inadequate. Even if we were to consider a merit deci-
    sion, the City cannot advance arguments not raised before
    the district court for the first time on appeal. See Kyle v.
    Morton High Sch. Dist. 201, 
    144 F.3d 448
    , 454 (7th Cir.
    1998); Oates v. Discovery Zone, 
    116 F.3d 1161
    , 1168 (7th
    Cir. 1997).
    As a result, we remand Lee’s spray-painting claim for
    further proceedings. We note that since a federal claim
    will be once again be before it on remand, the district
    court’s stated reasons for denying supplemental jurisdiction
    over Lee’s state-law claims pursuant to 
    28 U.S.C. § 1367
    are no longer valid.
    CONCLUSION
    Conditioning a car’s release upon payment of towing and
    storage fees does not equate to a “seizure” within the
    meaning of the Fourth Amendment. And because Lee
    has failed to show that traditional state-law remedies
    cannot provide him with adequate avenues for relief, he
    cannot make a claim that this practice violates his
    substantive-due-process rights. If any error is to be found
    with this practice, we suspect that the case-by-case anal-
    ysis afforded by the common law provides the appropriate
    opportunity to remedy it, without having to announce new
    constitutional principles whose future application may
    prove unmanageable or unwise.
    Regarding the City’s decision to spray paint inventory
    numbers on impounded vehicles, we find that Lee has
    alleged a cognizable property interest sufficient to confer
    upon him standing to challenge the practice. Although
    that interest may have become defeasible upon the expira-
    tion of the notice period after impoundment, it had not
    expired. Therefore, the district court erred when it deter-
    mined that Lee lacked standing to bring a claim challeng-
    ing the City’s spray painting of his car.
    26                                               No. 02-1503
    The decision of the district court is therefore AFFIRMED
    IN PART, REVERSED IN PART and REMANDED for proceed-
    ings consistent with this opinion.
    DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judge, concurring. I agree with
    the majority that Mark Lee has standing to contest the
    constitutionality of the act of agents of the City of Chi-
    cago in spray painting his car and that further proceedings
    are warranted on this claim. I also agree that Lee’s sub-
    stantive due process claim was correctly rejected by the
    district court. With respect to both those aspects of the case,
    I am happy to join as well in the majority’s rationale. It
    is the Fourth Amendment claim that gives me pause,
    although in the final analysis I too believe that Lee should
    not succeed on this claim. For the reasons I explain be-
    low, however, I think it undesirable to hold sweepingly
    that the Fourth Amendment has nothing to do with the
    reasonableness of the continued detention of property
    after the rationale supporting the initial seizure no longer
    holds. The implications of such a holding might end up
    being broad indeed. I am also concerned that the legal
    picture might have looked different if it had been more
    complete, and Lee had presented a fully developed claim
    under the Fifth Amendment’s Takings Clause. Taking
    the Fourth and Fifth Amendment theories one at a time
    gives rise to a risk that we might reject each one in turn,
    thinking that the other would remain available to a
    proper plaintiff. Even taking into account the fact that
    constitutional gaps can and do exist, it is not a good idea
    to create them inadvertently.
    Before turning to the Fourth and Fifth Amendment
    arguments that could be postulated here, it helps to set
    No. 02-1503                                                27
    the stage. As the majority notes, Lee was a victim of a
    stray shooting in the City of Chicago. There is no hint
    in this record that he was anything but an innocent by-
    stander, who happened to have some property (his car)
    that was likely to be of use to the police in their investiga-
    tion of a crime. There is also no hint that his car was in
    an area restricted by any state or local law, such that it
    was subject to towing and impoundment under well estab-
    lished police powers. If the police had seized anything
    else belonging to such an innocent bystander/victim, such
    as a camera or a tape recording that might have proven
    valuable to their investigation, no one would have as-
    sumed that the City could charge a fee for the return
    of the property. The question here, in a sense, is why
    should a car be different? More fundamentally, the ques-
    tion is whether there is any recourse for an innocent
    party like Lee when the government takes his property,
    initially for law enforcement purposes, and then refuses
    to return it unconditionally when the original raison d’être
    of the seizure has expired.
    Lee rested his principal hopes on the argument that
    the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition against unreason-
    able seizures offered a remedy for him. He made it clear
    that he was not challenging the right of the police to ef-
    fect the initial seizure. Instead, he focused only on the
    constructive “second seizure” of his car, which took place
    in the time period after the police no longer needed the
    car, when the City was taking the position that it would
    allow Lee to recover his car only upon the payment of the
    same towing and impoundment fees that parking ticket
    scofflaws and other traffic violators must pay. The major-
    ity rejects the conceptual separateness of the “second
    seizure,” and instead resolves Lee’s claim by relying on
    this court’s long-time rejection of the idea of a “continu-
    ing” seizure for Fourth Amendment purposes. See Wilkins
    v. May, 
    872 F.2d 190
    , 194-95 (7th Cir. 1989). I am not so
    28                                              No. 02-1503
    confident that the Fourth Amendment is utterly irrele-
    vant to the reasonableness of a decision to refuse to relin-
    quish seized property once the government has no need
    for it. Furthermore, if that is the path we are to go down, I
    think it important to realize that we risk creating an
    unwarranted gap in the constitutional protections that
    exist with respect to governmental takings of property.
    I consider first the Fourth Amendment point that Lee
    has urged before us. As the majority acknowledges, ante
    at 4, Lee agrees that both the initial impoundment of
    his car for evidentiary purposes and the delay between
    the City’s seizure of his car and its completion of the
    search of the car ten days later were reasonable for Fourth
    Amendment purposes. As of the 11th day, however, the
    City’s position was that Lee was not entitled to show up
    at the auto pound and retrieve the car—at least not with-
    out the usual payment in hand. To the contrary, he was
    told that he either had to produce the money within the
    next 20 days or so, or the car would be crushed or sold
    at auction. It is at this point, Lee contends, that a second
    seizure occurred. Moreover, this second seizure was unrea-
    sonable, within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment,
    because it was unsupported either by law enforcement
    needs or by any of the laws that normally entitle police
    to take someone’s car to the pound. Ransom, Lee claims,
    should not be the price of recovering property that is
    unlawfully held by the government.
    The City’s argument in response is that the demanded
    payment had no impact at all on Lee’s freedom to recover
    his car. But that cannot be right: if the City had told Lee
    he could retrieve his car only upon the payment of
    $100,000, or only if he signed the deed to his home over to
    the City, he still would have been “free” in this sense to
    get the car, but in my view, at least, such a condition
    would be plainly unlawful. As a fall-back, the City also
    argues that certain ancillary costs go along with seizures
    No. 02-1503                                                29
    of automobiles in particular—towing and storage are
    not free services—and that it is entitled to apportion
    those costs to the victims of crimes (whether or not they
    wish to press charges). If this kind of apportionment is
    constitutional, and if the only condition upon retrieval of
    property is the payment of these reasonable ancillary costs,
    then the affected person is indeed free to reclaim the
    property as a legal matter.
    The City’s latter argument, in my view, comes closer to
    providing a sound basis for resolving the Fourth Amend-
    ment aspect of this case. First, it is well recognized that
    the touchstone of the Fourth Amendment is reasonable-
    ness. See Ohio v. Robinette, 
    519 U.S. 33
    , 39 (1996) (quot-
    ing Florida v. Jimeno, 
    500 U.S. 248
    , 250 (1991)). We
    have further noted that all individuals in society are
    benefitted by law enforcement activities, and all (presum-
    ably including crime victims) must therefore bear some
    of the burdens that go along with police activity. See Miller
    v. City of Chicago, 
    774 F.2d 188
     (7th Cir. 1985) (uphold-
    ing, over a substantive due process challenge, the constitu-
    tionality of the City of Chicago’s assessment of costs for the
    towing of recovered stolen automobiles as part of their
    return to their rightful owners). Even so, the government’s
    law enforcement interests surely do not confer on the police
    a roving warrant to seize and keep any private property
    they want, for however long they want to keep it. Our
    task is to find the proper balance between those law
    enforcement interests and the general citizen’s interest
    in her property. I therefore disagree with the majority, to
    the extent it has taken the position that the City’s inter-
    est was primarily fiscal by the time Lee wanted to retrieve
    the car. Instead, we need to look at the events as a whole.
    Doing so, it is important to me that (1) the second seizure
    was brief in duration, (2) the condition imposed on Lee
    was only to pay the actual cost of the towing and storage
    (i.e., an objectively reasonable sum), and (3) the City
    30                                              No. 02-1503
    never carried out its threat to destroy the car. (I do not
    comment here on Lee’s other claim for the damage to
    his vehicle while it remained in the City’s custody, as I
    agree with the majority’s disposition of that part of the
    case.) On these facts, I would say that there was no
    Fourth Amendment violation commencing with the second
    seizure, because whatever continued seizure occurred in
    this particular situation was not unreasonable.
    The majority, however, has chosen to rule broadly that
    the Fourth Amendment has nothing to say about a seizure
    beyond the instant when that seizure occurs. I agree that
    the Second Circuit’s decision in United States v. Jakobetz,
    
    955 F.2d 786
     (2d Cir. 1992), and the Sixth Circuit’s deci-
    sion in Fox v. Van Oosterum, 
    176 F.3d 342
     (6th Cir. 1999),
    are of limited utility here, because both the facts and the
    legal contexts were different. I am not convinced, however,
    that simply saying that a seizure is a temporally limited
    act, see ante at 9, is enough to resolve the question. How
    short a time period are we talking about? The word “sei-
    zure” also implies that the property is being held long
    enough to ensure that it will not be recaptured. At the
    other end of the spectrum would be a permanent taking
    of the property. This, the majority agrees, would amount
    to a de facto forfeiture. Ante at 15. It assumes that the
    government would not do this without the proper forfei-
    ture proceedings, brought within the proper time, but I
    am not so sanguine. Lurking just below the surface of
    Lee’s case is the knotty problem of what can be done
    about this set of cases.
    One possibility, endorsed by some, would be to find a
    Fourth Amendment violation in the continued retention
    of the property. See generally Fern Lynn Kletter, Destruc-
    tion of Property as Violation of Fourth Amendment, 
    98 A.L.R.5th 305
     (2002). If Wilkins indeed imposes the instan-
    taneous view of “seizure” on us, then that avenue will not
    be available in this court. See also Reed v. City of Chicago,
    No. 02-1503                                              31
    
    77 F.3d 1049
    , 1053 (7th Cir. 1996). Yet it is troubling
    indeed to think that no remedy at all exists for people
    whose property is taken by the government and not prop-
    erly returned. The question is what can that remedy be,
    if the Fourth Amendment does not provide it?
    The obvious candidate, as the majority notes in footnote
    5, ante at 15, is the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amend-
    ment, as incorporated against the states by the Fourteenth
    Amendment. Chicago, Burlington & Quincy R.R. v. City of
    Chicago, 
    166 U.S. 226
     (1897). The Fifth Amendment to the
    Constitution states that “private property shall not be
    taken for public use, without just compensation.” U.S.
    CONST. amend. V. The Takings Clause has been held to
    apply to two types of governmental action: first, the taking
    of physical possession or control of an interest in property
    for some public purpose; and second, regulations prohibit-
    ing private uses. See Tahoe-Sierra Pres. Council, Inc. v.
    Tahoe Reg’l Planning Agency, 
    535 U.S. 302
    , 321-23 (2002).
    The first kind of action is part of the inherent sovereign
    power of eminent domain. Regulatory takings, by contrast,
    occur without the formalities of eminent domain: they
    result from the state’s general powers to impose regulations
    that, in effect, condemn some or all of the use of the prop-
    erty and thereby diminish the value to its owners to such
    an extent that it is as if the government had condemned
    the property.
    Viewed from a takings perspective, Lee suffered from
    the former kind of taking: governmental authorities phys-
    ically took some of his personal property for a public
    purpose and kept it for a period of time. The fact that
    the taking (which occurred after the permissible seizure
    was over) was temporary rather than permanent is of no
    consequence. The Supreme Court has made it clear that
    compensation is required even when the government’s
    physical occupation is temporary. See Tahoe-Sierra, 
    535 U.S. at 322
    ; see also First English Evangelical Lutheran
    32                                               No. 02-1503
    Church v. County of Los Angeles, 
    482 U.S. 304
    , 318 (1987)
    (collecting cases).
    Looking briefly at Lee’s (hypothetical) takings claim, we
    would begin with the question whether he had a prop-
    erty interest in the item taken. As of the time the City’s
    need for the car ended, there can be no doubt that he did.
    Even the City has argued only that his interest was termi-
    nated at the end of the thirty-day period, and the majority
    has shown in the standing portion of its opinion that
    Lee continued to have a defeasible property interest in the
    car even after that. Second, the government must have
    actually taken the property. This is not a formalistic in-
    quiry about title; instead, a claimant need only prove
    that “property,” in the sense of “the group of rights inher-
    ing in the citizen’s relation to [a] physical thing,” has been
    “taken.” United States v. General Motors Corp., 
    323 U.S. 373
    , 378 (1945). Any physical occupation is enough, even
    where the owner retains at least some use. See Loretto v.
    Teleprompter Manhattan CATV Corp., 
    458 U.S. 419
    , 426-28
    (1982). Nor, as I have already noted, does the duration of
    the impoundment matter for a physical taking. Duration of
    the restriction is “one of the important factors that a
    court must consider in the appraisal of a regulatory tak-
    ings claim,” Tahoe-Sierra, 
    535 U.S. at 342
     (emphasis
    added), but the duty to compensate an owner for a physical
    taking is “categorical,” 
    id. at 322
    . Third, a physical taking
    must be for a public use. But that element goes to the
    legitimacy of the government’s taking to begin with; if a
    taking is not for a public purpose, the government has no
    right to complete the act of eminent domain. See, e.g.,
    Hawaii Housing Auth. v. Midkiff, 
    467 U.S. 229
    , 241 (1984)
    (“[O]ne person’s property may not be taken for the bene-
    fit of another private person without a justifying public
    purpose, even though compensation be paid.”) (citing
    Thompson v. Consol. Gas Corp., 
    300 U.S. 55
    , 80 (1937)). In
    any event, the City here makes a public use argument
    No. 02-1503                                                33
    both about its need to retain or destroy cars in its pound,
    and so that element is not likely to be problematic in Lee’s
    case.
    If a plaintiff in Lee’s position proceeds under a theory
    that she has suffered a temporary taking, then she might
    seek to recover two different kinds of compensation. First,
    she might seek compensation for the reasonable value of
    the use of the car during the period that it was held by
    the City after the initial seizure was finished. The usual
    measure of “just compensation” in such a situation is “the
    property owner’s loss rather than the government’s gain.”
    See Brown v. Legal Found., ___ U.S. ___, ___, 
    123 S.Ct. 1406
    , 1419 (2003); see also Boston Chamber of Commerce
    v. City of Boston, 
    217 U.S. 189
    , 195 (1910). “Just com-
    pensation” might therefore require the City to reimburse
    the plaintiff for the cost of renting a car in the meantime, or
    the cost of alternate means of transportation. Second, a
    plaintiff might seek compensation for damage caused to
    her vehicle—in Lee’s case, the spray-painting—during
    its temporary use by the City. This latter form of compensa-
    tion for damages incurred while in the government’s pos-
    session was squarely upheld by the Supreme Court in
    General Motors. 
    323 U.S. at 378
    .
    I do not mean to suggest in this discussion that Lee, or
    any other particular plaintiff, would necessarily prevail
    on a Fifth Amendment Takings claim. Some courts have
    ruled, at least in the context of relatively limited reten-
    tions of property, that nothing legally cognizable has been
    “taken” from the plaintiff because all citizens have a duty
    to assist the police. See, e.g., Eggleston v. Pierce County,
    
    64 P.3d 618
    , 623-24 (Wash. 2003); Emery v. State, 
    688 P.2d 72
    , 79-80 (Or. 1984). Other courts have disagreed.
    See Wallace v. City of Atlantic City, 
    608 A.2d 480
    , 483
    (N.J. Super. Ct. Law Div. 1992). The Supreme Court held,
    in the rather different context of the duty of an incarcer-
    ated material witness to assist the law enforcement au-
    34                                               No. 02-1503
    thorities, that no takings claim had been stated because
    citizen contributions to criminal investigations are in the
    nature of a public duty. See, e.g., Hurtado v. United States,
    
    410 U.S. 578
    , 588-89 (1973). Hurtado, however, speaks
    narrowly of the “giving of testimony” and “attendance upon
    court,” 
    id.,
     and it is not clear that the Court meant to
    extend its holding to the temporary forfeiture of property
    that was no longer needed by the police.
    The City might also point out that in rem forfeitures
    of property used for illicit purposes are non-compensable
    exercises of the government’s police power. See, e.g., Calero-
    Toledo v. Pearson Yacht Leasing Co., 
    416 U.S. 663
    , 680,
    686-87 (1974); Bowman v. United States, 
    35 Fed.Cl. 397
    ,
    404 (1996); United States v. One 1979 Cadillac Coupe
    de Ville, 
    833 F.2d 994
    , 1000-01 (Fed. Cir. 1987); see also
    C.J. Hendry Co. v. Moore, 
    318 U.S. 133
    , 137 (1943) (noting
    long, pre-Founding history of forfeiture of property used
    in violation of the law). But there is nothing in these
    cases to indicate that in rem forfeitures of the property of
    innocent bystanders are equally acceptable. See Bowman,
    35 Fed.Cl. at 404; Froudi v. United States, 22 Cl.Ct. 290,
    297-98 (1991); see also Federal Ins. Co. v. United States, 11
    Cl.Ct. 569, 570-71 (1987) (analyzing but reserving judg-
    ment on the question whether “the Government can ef-
    fect a taking by holding the property of an innocent by-
    stander as evidence in a criminal investigation”).
    Moreover, while the circuits are split on the question
    whether damages are available as part of a motion under
    FED. R. CRIM. P. 41(e) for return of property that is dam-
    aged, transferred, or lost while in government posses-
    sion pursuant to a criminal investigation, compare Mora
    v. United States, 
    955 F.2d 156
    , 160 (2d Cir. 1992); United
    States v. Martinson, 
    809 F.2d 1364
    , 1367-68 (9th Cir. 1987)
    (damages available), with Okoro v. Callaghan, 
    324 F.3d 488
    , 491 (7th Cir. 2003); United States v. Hall, 
    269 F.3d 940
    , 943 (8th Cir. 2001); United States v. Potes Ramirez,
    No. 02-1503                                                35
    
    260 F.3d 1310
    , 1316 (11th Cir. 2001); United States v.
    Jones, 
    225 F.3d 468
    , 470 (4th Cir. 2000); United States v.
    Bein, 
    214 F.3d 408
    , 413 (3d Cir. 2000); Pena v. United
    States, 
    157 F.3d 984
    , 986 (5th Cir. 1998) (damages not
    available), the sticking point in those cases has not been
    whether the plaintiff must internalize the costs of crim-
    inal investigations because of the use of the property in
    illicit conduct or out of public duty. It has instead been
    whether sovereign immunity prevents recovery of dam-
    ages at all—an issue not implicated in a suit against the
    City.
    Other arguments might also be available to both Lee
    and the City. Because the issue was not raised or briefed,
    there is no reason to explore every last detail at this point.
    My principal point is simple: the protection of private
    property is a high enough value in the Constitution that
    I would hesitate long before I concluded that there were
    no constitutional restrictions on the State’s power to
    seize property and keep it (or to do the equivalent by
    imposing such a costly condition on the recovery of the
    property that it is functionally unavailable to the owner). At
    least when the “second seizure” characterization is apt,
    I believe that the Fourth Amendment’s prohibitions against
    unreasonable seizures are triggered. To the extent that
    the Fourth Amendment does not speak to the issue, I am
    reassured that today’s opinion leaves open the possibility
    of finding in a proper case that a plaintiff might be able
    to assert a claim under the Fifth Amendment’s Takings
    Clause.
    I respectfully concur.
    36                                        No. 02-1503
    A true Copy:
    Teste:
    ________________________________
    Clerk of the United States Court of
    Appeals for the Seventh Circuit
    USCA-02-C-0072—5-22-03