Kenna v. United States District Court Central California ( 2006 )


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  •                    FOR PUBLICATION
    UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
    FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT
    W. PATRICK KENNA,                       
    Petitioner,
    No. 05-73467
    v.
    UNITED STATES DISTRICT                         D.C. No.
    CR-03-00568-JFW
    COURT FOR THE CENTRAL
    OPINION
    DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA,
    Respondent.
    
    Petition for Writ of Mandamus to the
    United States District Court
    for the Central District of California
    John F. Walter, District Judge, Presiding
    Argued and Submitted
    January 11, 2006—Pasadena, California
    Filed January 20, 2006
    Before: Alfred T. Goodwin, Daniel M. Friedman,* and
    Alex Kozinski, Circuit Judges.
    Opinion by Judge Kozinski;
    Dubitante by Judge Friedman
    *The Honorable Daniel M. Friedman, Senior United States Circuit
    Judge for the Federal Circuit, sitting by designation.
    1163
    1166        KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    COUNSEL
    Steven J. Twist, Scottsdale, Arizona; Keli B. Luther, Crime
    Victims Legal Assistance Project, Tempe, Arizona; John A.
    Case, Jr., Law Offices of John A. Case, Jr., Los Angeles, Cal-
    ifornia; for the petitioner.
    The Honorable John F. Walter, Los Angeles, California,
    respondent.
    Viet D. Dinh, Wendy J. Keefer, Bancroft Associates PLLC,
    Washington, DC; Richard Stone, Hogan & Hartson L.L.P.,
    Los Angeles, California; H. Christopher Bartolomucci, Hogan
    & Hartson L.L.P., Washington, DC; for amici curiae United
    States Senators Jon Kyl and Dianne Feinstein.
    Assistant United States Attorney R. Stephen Kramer was
    present at oral argument on behalf of the United States and
    answered questions, but did not file a brief or take a position
    on the merits.
    OPINION
    KOZINSKI, Circuit Judge:
    We consider whether the Crime Victims’ Rights Act, 
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    , gives victims the right to allocute at sentenc-
    ing.
    KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT             1167
    Facts
    Moshe and Zvi Leichner, father and son, swindled scores
    of victims out of almost $100 million. While purporting to
    make investments in foreign currency, they spent or con-
    cealed the funds entrusted to them. Each defendant pleaded
    guilty to two counts of wire fraud and one count of money
    laundering. More than sixty of the Leichners’ victims submit-
    ted written victim impact statements. At Moshe’s sentencing,
    several, including petitioner W. Patrick Kenna, spoke about
    the effects of the Leichners’ crimes—retirement savings lost,
    businesses bankrupted and lives ruined. The district court sen-
    tenced Moshe to 240 months in prison.
    Three months later, at Zvi’s sentencing, the district court
    heard from the prosecutor and the defendant, as required by
    Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 32(i)(4). But the court
    denied the victims the opportunity to speak. It explained:
    I listened to the victims the last time. I can say for
    the record I’ve rereviewed all the investor victim
    statements. I have listened at Mr. Leichner’s father’s
    sentencing to the victims and, quite frankly, I don’t
    think there’s anything that any victim could say that
    would have any impact whatsoever. I—what can you
    say when people have lost their life savings and what
    can you say when the individual who testified last
    time put his client’s [sic] into this investment and
    millions and millions of dollars and ended up losing
    his business? There just isn’t anything else that could
    possibly be said.
    One victim protested that “[t]here are many things that are
    going on with the residual and second and third impacts in
    this case that have unfolded over the last 90 days since we
    were last in this courtroom.” But the district judge told the
    victims that the prosecutor could bring those developments to
    1168        KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    his attention, and continued to refuse to let the victims speak.
    Zvi was sentenced to 135 months in prison.
    Kenna filed a timely petition for writ of mandamus pursu-
    ant to the Crime Victims’ Right Act (CVRA), 
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    (d)(3). He seeks an order vacating Zvi’s sentence, and
    commanding the district court to allow the victims to speak at
    the resentencing.
    Analysis
    1. The criminal justice system has long functioned on the
    assumption that crime victims should behave like good Victo-
    rian children—seen but not heard. The Crime Victims’ Rights
    Act sought to change this by making victims independent par-
    ticipants in the criminal justice process. See Scott Campbell,
    Stephanie Roper, Wendy Preston, Louarna Gillis, and Nila
    Lynn Crime Victims’ Rights Act, Pub. L. No. 108-405,
    §§ 101-104, 
    118 Stat. 2260
    , 2261-65 (2004) (codified at 
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    ). The CVRA guarantees crime victims eight
    different rights, and unlike the prior crime victims’ rights stat-
    ute, allows both the government and the victims to enforce
    them. See 
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    (a), (d)(1); United States v.
    McVeigh, 
    106 F.3d 325
    , 335 (10th Cir. 1997) (per curiam).
    [1] Kenna and the district court disagree over the scope of
    one of the rights guaranteed by the CVRA: “The right to be
    reasonably heard at any public proceeding in the district court
    involving release, plea, sentencing, or any parole proceeding.”
    
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    (a)(4). Kenna contends that his right to be
    “reasonably heard” means that he is entitled to speak in open
    court at Zvi’s sentencing, if that is how he chooses to express
    himself. The district court argues that the words “reasonably
    heard” vest the judge with discretion about how to receive the
    views of the victims, and that the judge is entitled to limit
    Kenna to written victim statements or his prior statements at
    Moshe’s sentencing. No court of appeals has considered the
    scope of this CVRA right, and the two district courts that have
    KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT                 1169
    closely considered it have reached opposite conclusions.
    Compare United States v. Degenhardt, 
    2005 WL 3485922
    , at
    *3 (D. Utah Dec. 21, 2005) (CVRA grants victims a right to
    speak) with United States v. Marcello, 
    370 F. Supp. 2d 745
    ,
    748 (N.D. Ill. 2005) (no it doesn’t).
    Kenna would have us interpret the phrase “reasonably
    heard” as guaranteeing his right to speak. For support, he
    points to the dictionary definition of “hear”—“to perceive
    (sound) by the ear.” The American Heritage Dictionary of the
    English Language (4th ed. 2000), available at http://
    www.bartleby.com/61/69/H0106900.html. Kenna concedes
    that the district court may place reasonable constraints on the
    duration and content of victims’ speech, such as avoiding
    undue delay, repetition or the use of profanity.1 However, in
    Kenna’s view, the district court may not prohibit victims from
    speaking in court altogether or limit them to making written
    statements. This is the interpretation adopted by the district
    court in Degenhardt.
    But this isn’t the only plausible interpretation of the phrase
    “reasonably heard.” According to the district court, to be
    “heard” is commonly understood as meaning to bring one’s
    position to the attention of the decisionmaker orally or in writ-
    ing. See, e.g., Fernandez v. Leonard, 
    963 F.2d 459
    , 463 (1st
    Cir. 1992) (“Where the parties have had a ‘fair opportunity to
    present relevant facts and argument to the court,’ a matter
    may be “ ‘heard” on the papers’ alone.” (quoting Aoude v.
    Mobil Oil Corp., 
    862 F.2d 890
    , 894 (1st Cir. 1988))). The dis-
    trict court urges us to follow Marcello and hold that the
    CVRA guarantees victims only a right to make their position
    1
    The CVRA itself contains one such nod to judicial economy. In crimes
    with multiple victims, the CVRA allows district courts to fashion “a rea-
    sonable procedure to give effect to [the act] that does not unduly compli-
    cate or prolong the proceedings.” 
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    (d)(2). Such a
    procedure may well be appropriate in a case like this one, where there are
    many victims.
    1170          KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    known by whatever means the court reasonably determines.
    See Marcello, 
    370 F. Supp. 2d at 748
    . Even though “heard”
    has been held to include submission on the papers in some
    contexts, it does not follow that the CVRA calls for an equally
    broad construction. It merely shows that the district court’s
    interpretation of the term is also plausible.2
    The district court also argues that, had Congress meant to
    give victims a right to speak at sentencing hearings, it could
    easily have done so by using the word “speak” which clearly
    connotes only oral communications, not written ones. This is
    the term used in Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure
    32(i)(4)(B), which gives the victims of certain types of crimes
    the right “to speak or submit any information about the sen-
    tence.” The district court would have us infer from the fact
    that Congress used the more ambiguous term “heard” that it
    meant to give victims of crimes not covered by Rule 32 a
    more circumscribed right to present their views. However, the
    term “heard” does not appear in isolation in the CVRA. The
    full phrase we are construing is “[t]he right to be reasonably
    heard at any public proceeding in the district court involving
    . . . sentencing.” Virtually all proceedings in district court are
    public in the sense that the papers and other materials may be
    viewed by anyone on request to the clerk’s office.3 When
    2
    We do not read Paladin Associates, Inc. v. Montana Power Co., 
    328 F.3d 1145
    , 1164-65 (9th Cir. 2003), as compelling a contrary result. In
    Paladin, a party seeking to avoid discovery sanctions argued that its right
    to be heard under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 37(c)(1) entitled it to
    an evidentiary hearing. We held that “under the facts and circumstances
    of the present case, the opportunity to submit briefs was an ‘opportunity
    to be heard’ within the meaning of Rule 37(c)(1).” Paladin, 
    328 F.3d at 1164-65
    . Kenna does not claim the right to present evidence or testify
    under oath; he seeks the right of allocution, much like that traditionally
    guaranteed a criminal defendant before sentence is imposed. Paladin thus
    not only construed the term “heard” in a different context, but also dealt
    with the right to present evidence, which is not at issue here.
    3
    The rare exception involves cases where certain portions of the record
    are sealed. This can occur only in rare and exceptional circumstances for
    compelling reasons. Phoenix Newspapers, Inc. v. United States Dist.
    Court for the Dist. of Ariz., 
    156 F.3d 940
    , 946-47 (9th Cir. 1998).
    KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT                 1171
    Congress used the word “public” in this portion of the CVRA,
    however, it most likely meant to refer to proceedings in open
    court—much as the word is used in the common phrase “pub-
    lic hearing.”4 So read, the right to be “heard” at a “public pro-
    ceeding” becomes synonymous with “speak” and we can
    draw no negative inference from the congressional choice of
    one term over the other.
    [2] In the end, we find none of these textual arguments dis-
    positive and conclude, as did Degenhardt, that both readings
    of the statute are plausible. The statute is therefore ambiguous
    as to what it means for crime victims to be heard. To resolve
    this ambiguity, we turn to the legislative history of the CVRA.
    See Toibb v. Radloff, 
    501 U.S. 157
    , 162 (1991) (“[A] court
    appropriately may refer to a statute’s legislative history to
    resolve statutory ambiguity . . . .”). The Senate considered the
    CVRA in April 2004, and at that time the primary sponsors
    of the bill, Senators Jon Kyl and Dianne Feinstein, discussed
    this very issue:
    It is not the intent of the term “reasonably” in the
    phrase “to be reasonably heard” to provide any
    excuse for denying a victim the right to appear in
    person and directly address the court. Indeed, the
    very purpose of this section is to allow the victim to
    appear personally and directly address the court.
    150 Cong. Rec. S4268 (daily ed. April 22, 2004) (statement
    of Sen. Kyl); see also 
    id.
     (statement of Sen. Feinstein) (“That
    is my understanding as well.”). Six months later, the CVRA
    was attached to a House bill, and Senator Kyl reiterated his
    understanding of the CVRA language.
    4
    We rather suspect that Congress may have used the phrase “heard at
    any public proceeding” rather than “heard at any public hearing” in a fas-
    tidious effort to avoid saying “heard” and “hearing” within 5 words of
    each other. Of course, repetition—as well as ambiguity—could also have
    been avoided by using the phrase “speak at any public hearing,” which is
    why we don’t view the reference to a “public proceeding” as dispositive.
    1172        KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    It is important that the “reasonably be heard” lan-
    guage not be an excuse for minimizing the victim’s
    opportunity to be heard. Only if it is not practical for
    the victim to speak in person or if the victim wishes
    to be heard by the court in a different fashion should
    this provision mean anything other than an in-person
    right to be heard.
    150 Cong. Rec. S10911 (daily ed. Oct. 9, 2004) (statement of
    Sen. Kyl).
    [3] Floor statements are not given the same weight as some
    other types of legislative history, such as committee reports,
    because they generally represent only the view of the speaker
    and not necessarily that of the entire body. However, floor
    statements by the sponsors of the legislation are given consid-
    erably more weight than floor statements by other members,
    see NLRB v. St. Francis Hosp. of Lynwood, 
    601 F.2d 404
    , 415
    n.12 (9th Cir. 1979), and they are given even more weight
    where, as here, other legislators did not offer any contrary
    views. Silence, the maxim goes, connotes assent, see Robert
    Bolt, A Man for All Seasons act 2, at 88 (1962), and so we can
    draw from the fact that no one registered disagreement with
    Senators Kyl and Feinstein on this point the reasonable infer-
    ence that the views they expressed reflected a consensus, at
    least in the Senate.
    [4] We also note that the CVRA passed as a compromise
    measure after a lengthy effort to amend the Constitution to
    protect victims’ rights. The proposed constitutional amend-
    ment used language almost identical to that ultimately enacted
    in the CVRA; it guaranteed victims the right “reasonably to
    be heard.” S.J. Res. 1, 108th Cong. (2003). But the legislative
    history of the proposed amendment is more substantial than
    that of the CVRA. The Senate Report on the amendment
    notes that:
    The victim’s right is to “be heard.” The right to
    make an oral statement is conditioned on the vic-
    KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT          1173
    tim’s presence in the courtroom. . . . [V]ictims
    should always be given the power to determine the
    form of the statement. Simply because a decision
    making body, such as the court . . . has a prior state-
    ment of some sort on file does not mean that the vic-
    tim should not again be offered the opportunity to
    make a further statement. . . . The Committee does
    not intend that the right to be heard be limited to
    “written” statements, because the victim may wish to
    communicate in other appropriate ways.
    S. Rep. No. 108-191, at 38 (2003). The statements of the
    sponsors of the CVRA and the committee report for the pro-
    posed constitutional amendment disclose a clear congressio-
    nal intent to give crime victims the right to speak at
    proceedings covered by the CVRA.
    Our interpretation advances the purposes of the CVRA.
    The statute was enacted to make crime victims full partici-
    pants in the criminal justice system. Prosecutors and defen-
    dants already have the right to speak at sentencing, see Fed.
    R. Crim. P. 32(i)(4)(A); our interpretation puts crime victims
    on the same footing. Our interpretation also serves to effectu-
    ate other statutory aims: (1) To ensure that the district court
    doesn’t discount the impact of the crime on the victims; (2)
    to force the defendant to confront the human cost of his
    crime; and (3) to allow the victim “to regain a sense of dignity
    and respect rather than feeling powerless and ashamed.”
    Jayne W. Barnard, Allocution for Victims of Economic
    Crimes, 
    77 Notre Dame L. Rev. 39
    , 41 (2001). Limiting vic-
    tims to written impact statements, while allowing the prosecu-
    tor and the defendant the opportunity to address the court,
    would treat victims as secondary participants in the sentenc-
    ing process. The CVRA clearly meant to make victims full
    participants.
    [5] Nor was Kenna’s statutory right vindicated because he
    had the opportunity to speak at Moshe’s sentencing three
    1174        KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    months earlier. The statute gives victims a “right to be reason-
    ably heard at any public proceeding in the district court
    involving release, plea, sentencing, or any parole proceeding.”
    
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    (a)(4). This language means that the district
    court must hear from the victims, if they choose to speak, at
    more than one criminal sentencing. The court can’t deny the
    defendant allocution because it thinks “[t]here just isn’t any-
    thing else that could possibly be said.” Victims now have an
    indefeasible right to speak, similar to that of the defendant,
    and for good reason: The effects of a crime aren’t fixed for-
    ever once the crime is committed—physical injuries some-
    times worsen; victims’ feelings change; secondary and
    tertiary effects such as broken families and lost jobs may not
    manifest themselves until much time has passed. The district
    court must consider the effects of the crime on the victims at
    the time it makes its decision with respect to punishment, not
    as they were at some point in the past. Moreover, the CVRA
    gives victims the right to confront every defendant who has
    wronged them; speaking at a co-defendant’s sentencing does
    not vindicate the right of the victims to look this defendant in
    the eye and let him know the suffering his misconduct has
    caused.
    2. We normally apply strict standards in reviewing petitions
    for a writ of mandamus, in large part to ensure that they not
    become vehicles for interlocutory review in routine cases. To
    this end, we grant the writ only when there is something truly
    extraordinary about the case—for example, clear or oft-
    repeated legal error by the district court, no other means for
    the petitioner to obtain review or an issue of first impression.
    This may well be such a case: The petitioner raises an issue
    of first impression, the district court clearly erred in its inter-
    pretation and Kenna has no other means of vindicating his
    rights. This case may thus merit review even under the strict
    standard announced in Bauman v. United States District
    Court, 
    557 F.2d 650
    , 654-55 (9th Cir. 1977).
    [6] However, we need not balance the usual Bauman fac-
    tors because the CVRA contemplates active review of orders
    KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT          1175
    denying victims’ rights claims even in routine cases. The
    CVRA explicitly gives victims aggrieved by a district court’s
    order the right to petition for review by writ of mandamus,
    provides for expedited review of such a petition, allows a sin-
    gle judge to make a decision thereon, and requires a reasoned
    decision in case the writ is denied. The CVRA creates a
    unique regime that does, in fact, contemplate routine interloc-
    utory review of district court decisions denying rights asserted
    under the statute. We thus need not balance the Bauman fac-
    tors in ruling on mandamus petitions brought under the
    CVRA; rather, we must issue the writ whenever we find that
    the district court’s order reflects an abuse of discretion or
    legal error. The Second Circuit has come to the same conclu-
    sion. See United States v. Rigas (In re W.R. Huff Asset Mgmt.
    Co.), 
    409 F.3d 555
    , 562 (2d Cir. 2005) (holding that “a peti-
    tioner seeking relief pursuant to the mandamus provision set
    forth in § 3771(d)(3) need not overcome the hurdles typically
    faced by a petitioner seeking review of a district court deter-
    mination through a writ of mandamus”). We are aware of no
    court of appeals that has held to the contrary.
    [7] 3. As we explained above, the district court here com-
    mitted an error of law by refusing to allow petitioner to allo-
    cute at Zvi’s sentencing and we must therefore issue the writ.
    We turn now to the scope of the remedy. Kenna asks us to
    vacate Zvi’s sentence, and order the district court to resen-
    tence him after allowing the victims to speak. The problem is
    that the CVRA gives district courts, not courts of appeals, the
    authority to decide a motion to reopen in the first instance.
    See 
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    (d)(5). Moreover, defendant Zvi Leich-
    ner is not a party to this mandamus action, and reopening his
    sentence in a proceeding where he did not participate may
    well violate his right to due process. It would therefore be
    imprudent and perhaps unconstitutional for us to vacate Zvi’s
    sentence without giving him an opportunity to respond.
    [8] We could delay further our consideration of the petition
    and order briefing from the defendant, but we think it more
    1176          KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    advisable to let the district court consider the motion to
    reopen in the first instance. In ruling on the motion, the dis-
    trict court must avoid upsetting constitutionally protected
    rights, but it must also be cognizant that the only way to give
    effect to Kenna’s right to speak as guaranteed to him by the
    CVRA is to vacate the sentence and hold a new sentencing
    hearing. We note that if the district court chooses not to
    reopen the sentence, Kenna will have another opportunity to
    petition this court for mandamus pursuant to the CVRA. Like-
    wise, defendant will be able to contest any change in his sen-
    tence through the normal avenue for appeal (assuming he has
    not waived such rights as part of the plea bargain).
    4. Finally, we recognize that under 
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    (d)(3), we were required to “take up and decide [this]
    application forthwith within 72 hours after the petition [had]
    been filed.” 
    Id.
     We acknowledge our regrettable failure to
    consider the petition within the time limits of the statute, and
    apologize to the petitioner for this inexcusable delay. It may
    serve as a small comfort for petitioner to know that, largely
    because of this case, we are in the process of promulgating
    procedures for expeditious handling of CVRA mandamus
    petitions to ensure that we comply with the statute’s strict
    time limits in future cases. As victim participation in the crim-
    inal justice system becomes more common, we expect CVRA
    claims to become more frequent, and thus encourage district
    courts to modify their own procedures so as to give full effect
    to the CVRA.5
    5
    We note, for example, that our task in crafting an effective remedy
    would have been greatly simplified, had the district court postponed Zvi’s
    sentencing until the petition for writ of mandamus was resolved. District
    courts may consider whether to routinely postpone final imposition of sen-
    tence in cases where they deny a request by victims to exercise rights
    granted by the CVRA.
    KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT             1177
    Conclusion
    We grant the petition for writ of mandamus and hold that
    the district court erred in refusing to allow Kenna and other
    victims to speak at Zvi Leichner’s sentencing hearing. The
    district court shall deem timely a motion pursuant to 
    18 U.S.C. § 3771
    (d)(5) filed by Kenna or any other of Zvi’s vic-
    tims within 14 days of the date of our opinion. If the district
    court grants the motion, it shall conduct a new sentencing
    hearing, according Kenna and the other victims the right to
    speak as described above.
    PETITION GRANTED.
    The panel retains jurisdiction over any future mandamus
    petitions arising from the Zvi Leichner criminal case.
    FRIEDMAN, Senior Circuit Judge, dubitante:
    Although I agree that the writ should issue, I am concerned
    about the seemingly broad sweep of the opinion.
    1. The court decides — and I agree — that the require-
    ment in the Crime Victims Rights Act (“the Act”) that crime
    victims may be “reasonably heard” at sentencing entitles them
    to speak there. The court then holds — and I again agree —
    that the district court could not justify its refusal to permit the
    victims of this huge swindle to speak at Zvi’s sentencing
    because it had permitted them to speak at his father’s sentenc-
    ing three months earlier (both father and son participated in
    the fraud).
    My concern is that the court seems to hold that a victim has
    an absolute right to speak at sentencing, no matter what the
    circumstances. As the court states, “the CVRA gives victims
    the right to confront every defendant who has wronged them;
    1178        KENNA v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
    speaking at a co-defendant’s sentencing does not vindicate the
    right of the victims to look this defendant in the eye and let
    him know the suffering his misconduct has caused.” Suppose
    that the present case were changed so that Zvi’s sentencing
    took place immediately after his father’s on the same day, and
    that Kenna had been allowed to speak at the father’s sentenc-
    ing (as he did). Would he have an absolute right to speak an
    hour later at Zvi’s sentencing and to repeat what he had just
    stated? Perhaps the Act would give him that right, but it is not
    clear to me that this statute goes that far. I would leave that
    issue open and issue an opinion of more limited scope.
    2. There is a similar sweep to the mandamus writ the
    court issues. Although only Kenna filed a petition for manda-
    mus, the “Conclusion” of the opinion gives not only Kenna
    but the “other victims” of the fraud the right to speak at Zvi’s
    sentencing. Suppose a case with five defendants and 20 vic-
    tims. Does each victim have the right to speak at the sentenc-
    ing of each defendant? Although the court notes that “Kenna
    concedes that the district court may place reasonable con-
    straints on the duration and content of victims’ speech, such
    as avoiding undue delay, repetition or the use of profanity,”
    it stops short of accepting this concession. In the hypothetical
    I have just posed, it is difficult to believe that the Act requires
    the court to listen to 100 victim statements. Once again, I
    think that the statutory standard of “reasonably heard” may
    permit a district court to impose reasonable limitations on cer-
    tain oral statements. Perhaps in my hypothetical, the court
    could require multiple victims, as a condition to speaking, to
    state what they would add to the prior statements of other vic-
    tims. In any event, I would think that our writ would only
    require the district court to consider allowing Kenna to speak
    at any resentencing. I would leave it to the district court ini-
    tially to decide whether other victims also may speak there.